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David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos@Kathryn98967631 and 49 others
Methinks everybody knows that Minister Mikey or his boss Higgy can stop the "Not So Smart" Meter nonsense with a simple phone call or a stroke of a pen if need be N'esy Pas?
https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2020/01/interveners-dubious-over-nb-powers.html
#nbpoli#cdnpoli
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-power-smart-meters-eub-hearings-1.5425284
· CBC News· Posted: Jan 13, 2020 4:53 PM AT
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NB Power has returned to the EUB with a revised smart meters proposal. A similar bid was rejected by the regulator in 2017. (Robert Jones/CBC)
Claims made by NB Power about the financial benefits of installing smart meters for its entire customer base as part of a $92 million advanced metering infrastructure, or AMI, project were quickly under scrutiny at hearings in front of the Energy and Utilities Board on Monday.
But the utility is holding firm in its argument the switch is required and will save it and ratepayers millions of dollars.
"AMI will help us operate more efficiently and reduce costs while offering important direct benefits for our customers," said Senior NB Power Vice president Lori Clark in an opening statement for what is expected to be an eight day examination of the proposal by NB Power's regulator.
"We hope you will agree that we need to invest in AMI now," Clark told the three member panel hearing the proposal. "There is no "do nothing" option."
![]()
Lori Clark, NB Power's senior vice president of operations, says the utility can prove smart meters can save ratepayers $31 million. (CBC)
A similar application by the utility in 2017 was eventually rejected by the EUB at hearings in 2018 because it failed to convince the board the investment would generate a net financial gain — a key issue again this time.
"The demonstrated benefits to ratepayers must outweigh the expected costs that ratepayers will bear," the EUB ruled in rejecting NB Power's first application
This time, however, NB Power claims it has improved the application enough so that the "net present value" of benefits from adopting smart meters over 15 years will be $31.1 million more than costs.
"We took the feedback we received from this Board during the AMI hearing in 2018 and worked with a number of industry experts to explore potential savings and costs that we had not previously considered," said Clark in explaining the improved numbers.
![]()
Interveners scrutinized NB Power's new smart meter plan on the first day of hearings in front of the EUB. (CBC)
But shortly after Clark's opening statement, the lawyer for J.D. Irving Ltd. began questioning NB Power's calculation of benefits and whether they might be exaggerated.
Drawing on two expert evaluations of NB Power's plan commissioned by the EUB and public intervener Heather Black, Christopher Stewart raised questions about whether NB Power was underestimating the cost of disposing of existing non-smart meters before their useful life is over and overestimating its own ability to keep the project on budget.
He also questioned whether some of the benefits of switching out old analog meters that are suspected of undercounting electricity consumption by homeowners as they age might be solved by adopting cheaper non smart digital meters.
"What's your position with respect to that?" asked Stewart.
Stephanie Langlais, a finance executive with NB Power, rejected the validity of some of Stewart's questions but did acknowledge the benefits of smart meters might be over stated in the business case by not comparing them to the installation of non-smart digital meters.
"The result is a reduction in the net present value of this benefit by $3.2 million," said Langlais.
![]()
Stephanie Langlais, a finance executive with NB Power, speaks before the three-member EUB panel Monday. (CBC)
NB Power executives told the hearing they know a number of people are wary of smart meters and said a switch will not be mandatory but customers will likely have to pay a $4 per month penalty to cover the cost of having their meter read.
"A very small minority of customers will remain unconvinced, and that is why we have proposed an opt-out process," said Clark.
"Although this small minority can be very vocal, they do not represent the views of the silent majority. NB Power has a responsibility to act in the best interests of all its customers."
Gerald Bourque, a private citizen and smart meter opponent who registered to participate in the hearing, asked specifically if the units are a fire hazard, based on the recall of 105,000 smart meters in Saskatchewan in 2014.
NB Power's Jill Doucett told Bourque the fires that triggered the Saskatchewan recall are now well understood and have been addressed with new safety features in current models.
"We have reviewed the experience of Saskatchewan and the investigation that was conducted post the installation of the meters and the fires that resulted and in that report there were a number of recommendations we have adhered to," said Doucett.
64 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Raymond Amos
Surprise Surprise Surprise
David Raymond Amos
Methinks Higgy and Minister Mikey must understand why I holler BINGO so much lately N'esy Pas?
Brad Little
Content disabled
Wow. Looking at this comment board, the "silent majority" is REALLY SILENT
David Raymond Amos
Fred Brewer
"This time, however, NB Power claims it has improved the application enough so that the "net present value" of benefits from adopting smart meters over 15 years will be $31.1 million more than costs." How can we trust NB Power's due diligence in this matter after the total failure of their due diligence on Joi Magic Beans?
Michael Durant
The levels of electromagnetic frequencies (EMF) given off by these new meters are weapon's grade and exceed ( by several magnitudes) safe levels of EMF exposure for human health as determined by researchers and scientists at the University of Montreal and around the world
David Raymond Amos
Bob Smith
Bit surprised they didn't say that for every home owner who agrees to smart meter installation, they get shares in JOI Scientific....
David Raymond Amos
David Raymond Amos
There are no saving to be made by investing more money into a product. It does not reduce your power consumption, it does not reduce the cost of the energy. All it does is permit NB Power to charge more for what they call "Premium Power" at times likely less convenient for the home owner. There is technology out there that provide the same services as a smart meter but discloses the data only to the home owner so they can adjust their usage. (I use one that can report power consumption in 1/2 second intervals so I can see the immediate impact of certain appliances.) In all reports in the last few years the majority of home owners cannot alter their power usage enough to make a significant difference on their bills It does let them choose more efficient appliances, but that only produces a fractional savings for the owner. The only reason NB Power wants smart meters is to provide justification to charge the home owner more! period! If NB Power thinks they can save money with Smart Meters I would be happy to let them subscribe (for a fee) to my data.
New Brunswick Energy and Utilities Board
Matter 430
IN THE MATTER OF an application by New Brunswick Power Corporation
for approval of the schedules of the rates for the fiscal year
commencing April 1, 2019, and other relief as outlined in NB Power’s
application
Held at the Algonquin Hotel, St. Andrews, N.B., on May 11 24th 2019.
Page 729
MR. RUSSELL: Yes. I would like to add a comment. I totally agree with
what Mr. Todd has said.
Page 730
The one thing I would like to remind or mention to the Board is that
we are very concerned about the data, the load research data, that is.
And it seems the problem might be viewed as greater than what it is
because there are many jurisdictions that conduct a cost of service
study and do it on a -- every third year or a fifth year interval. We
just happen to be ramping this up and doing a cost of service every
year. So it appears as if we are coming back with no, you know, bad
data again.
And while there might be a question about the data and how fresh it
is, I think it is important to keep in mind that when we do rate
design, you can look at cost -- the revenue to cost ratios on a
different interval, you know, a three, five year interval and then set
your rate design plan for that interval and gradually work your
classes towards the certain direction that you want to go in.
So having data that’s a little over two years old, while it is not
ideal, you know, you would like to have the fresh data, but it’s not
-- I don’t see it as being too, too grave in terms of what it might do
for the results. We know that with AMI, yes, it’s going to be a lot
better if we get to go with AMI. And we are going to need to start
planning, you know, for the scenario that
David Raymond Amos
Methinks everybody knows that Minister Mikey or his boss Higgy can stop the "Not So Smart" Meter nonsense with a simple phone call or a stroke of a pen if need be N'esy Pas?
David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos@Kathryn98967631 and 49 others
Methinks everybody knows that Minister Mikey or his boss Higgy can stop the "Not So Smart" Meter nonsense with a simple phone call or a stroke of a pen if need be N'esy Pas?
https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2020/01/interveners-dubious-over-nb-powers.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-power-smart-meters-eub-hearings-1.5425284
Interveners dubious over NB Power's revamped smart meter plan as EUB hearings begin
Utility comes back in front of regulatory board claiming greater savings
· CBC News· Posted: Jan 13, 2020 4:53 PM AT
NB Power has returned to the EUB with a revised smart meters proposal. A similar bid was rejected by the regulator in 2017. (Robert Jones/CBC)
Claims made by NB Power about the financial benefits of installing smart meters for its entire customer base as part of a $92 million advanced metering infrastructure, or AMI, project were quickly under scrutiny at hearings in front of the Energy and Utilities Board on Monday.
But the utility is holding firm in its argument the switch is required and will save it and ratepayers millions of dollars.
"AMI will help us operate more efficiently and reduce costs while offering important direct benefits for our customers," said Senior NB Power Vice president Lori Clark in an opening statement for what is expected to be an eight day examination of the proposal by NB Power's regulator.
"We hope you will agree that we need to invest in AMI now," Clark told the three member panel hearing the proposal. "There is no "do nothing" option."
Lori Clark, NB Power's senior vice president of operations, says the utility can prove smart meters can save ratepayers $31 million. (CBC)
A similar application by the utility in 2017 was eventually rejected by the EUB at hearings in 2018 because it failed to convince the board the investment would generate a net financial gain — a key issue again this time.
"The demonstrated benefits to ratepayers must outweigh the expected costs that ratepayers will bear," the EUB ruled in rejecting NB Power's first application
This time, however, NB Power claims it has improved the application enough so that the "net present value" of benefits from adopting smart meters over 15 years will be $31.1 million more than costs.
"We took the feedback we received from this Board during the AMI hearing in 2018 and worked with a number of industry experts to explore potential savings and costs that we had not previously considered," said Clark in explaining the improved numbers.
Interveners scrutinized NB Power's new smart meter plan on the first day of hearings in front of the EUB. (CBC)
But shortly after Clark's opening statement, the lawyer for J.D. Irving Ltd. began questioning NB Power's calculation of benefits and whether they might be exaggerated.
Drawing on two expert evaluations of NB Power's plan commissioned by the EUB and public intervener Heather Black, Christopher Stewart raised questions about whether NB Power was underestimating the cost of disposing of existing non-smart meters before their useful life is over and overestimating its own ability to keep the project on budget.
He also questioned whether some of the benefits of switching out old analog meters that are suspected of undercounting electricity consumption by homeowners as they age might be solved by adopting cheaper non smart digital meters.
"What's your position with respect to that?" asked Stewart.
Stephanie Langlais, a finance executive with NB Power, rejected the validity of some of Stewart's questions but did acknowledge the benefits of smart meters might be over stated in the business case by not comparing them to the installation of non-smart digital meters.
"The result is a reduction in the net present value of this benefit by $3.2 million," said Langlais.
Stephanie Langlais, a finance executive with NB Power, speaks before the three-member EUB panel Monday. (CBC)
NB Power executives told the hearing they know a number of people are wary of smart meters and said a switch will not be mandatory but customers will likely have to pay a $4 per month penalty to cover the cost of having their meter read.
"A very small minority of customers will remain unconvinced, and that is why we have proposed an opt-out process," said Clark.
"Although this small minority can be very vocal, they do not represent the views of the silent majority. NB Power has a responsibility to act in the best interests of all its customers."
Gerald Bourque, a private citizen and smart meter opponent who registered to participate in the hearing, asked specifically if the units are a fire hazard, based on the recall of 105,000 smart meters in Saskatchewan in 2014.
NB Power's Jill Doucett told Bourque the fires that triggered the Saskatchewan recall are now well understood and have been addressed with new safety features in current models.
"We have reviewed the experience of Saskatchewan and the investigation that was conducted post the installation of the meters and the fires that resulted and in that report there were a number of recommendations we have adhered to," said Doucett.
64 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Raymond Amos
Surprise Surprise Surprise
David Raymond Amos
Methinks Higgy and Minister Mikey must understand why I holler BINGO so much lately N'esy Pas?
Brad Little
Content disabled
Wow. Looking at this comment board, the "silent majority" is REALLY SILENT
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Brad Little: Not really it just that many comments are blocked
Fred Brewer
"This time, however, NB Power claims it has improved the application enough so that the "net present value" of benefits from adopting smart meters over 15 years will be $31.1 million more than costs." How can we trust NB Power's due diligence in this matter after the total failure of their due diligence on Joi Magic Beans?
Ben Haroldson
Reply to @Fred Brewer: you don't have to get that complicated to know what's up. Kiss.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Ben Haroldson: The leader of the KISS party Gerald Bourque who is now just a private citizen and still smart meter opponent who registered to participate in the hearing, asked specifically if the units are a fire hazard, based on the recall of 105,000 smart meters in Saskatchewan in 2014.
Michael Durant
The levels of electromagnetic frequencies (EMF) given off by these new meters are weapon's grade and exceed ( by several magnitudes) safe levels of EMF exposure for human health as determined by researchers and scientists at the University of Montreal and around the world
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Michael durant: Methinks folks should pay attention to Roger Richard's experts who will testify next week before the EUB N'esy Pas?
Bob Smith
Bit surprised they didn't say that for every home owner who agrees to smart meter installation, they get shares in JOI Scientific....
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Bob Smith: We already have them
David Raymond Amos
There are no saving to be made by investing more money into a product. It does not reduce your power consumption, it does not reduce the cost of the energy. All it does is permit NB Power to charge more for what they call "Premium Power" at times likely less convenient for the home owner. There is technology out there that provide the same services as a smart meter but discloses the data only to the home owner so they can adjust their usage. (I use one that can report power consumption in 1/2 second intervals so I can see the immediate impact of certain appliances.) In all reports in the last few years the majority of home owners cannot alter their power usage enough to make a significant difference on their bills It does let them choose more efficient appliances, but that only produces a fractional savings for the owner. The only reason NB Power wants smart meters is to provide justification to charge the home owner more! period! If NB Power thinks they can save money with Smart Meters I would be happy to let them subscribe (for a fee) to my data.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Roger Thompson: Well put
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Roger Thompson: NB Power Speaking of Data New Brunswick Energy and Utilities Board
Matter 430
IN THE MATTER OF an application by New Brunswick Power Corporation
for approval of the schedules of the rates for the fiscal year
commencing April 1, 2019, and other relief as outlined in NB Power’s
application
Held at the Algonquin Hotel, St. Andrews, N.B., on May 11 24th 2019.
Page 729
MR. RUSSELL: Yes. I would like to add a comment. I totally agree with
what Mr. Todd has said.
Page 730
The one thing I would like to remind or mention to the Board is that
we are very concerned about the data, the load research data, that is.
And it seems the problem might be viewed as greater than what it is
because there are many jurisdictions that conduct a cost of service
study and do it on a -- every third year or a fifth year interval. We
just happen to be ramping this up and doing a cost of service every
year. So it appears as if we are coming back with no, you know, bad
data again.
And while there might be a question about the data and how fresh it
is, I think it is important to keep in mind that when we do rate
design, you can look at cost -- the revenue to cost ratios on a
different interval, you know, a three, five year interval and then set
your rate design plan for that interval and gradually work your
classes towards the certain direction that you want to go in.
So having data that’s a little over two years old, while it is not
ideal, you know, you would like to have the fresh data, but it’s not
-- I don’t see it as being too, too grave in terms of what it might do
for the results. We know that with AMI, yes, it’s going to be a lot
better if we get to go with AMI. And we are going to need to start
planning, you know, for the scenario that
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Page 731
we may have AMI or may not have AMI, and what we might have to do. And
so it’s going to take a couple -- probably two, three years before we
get some fresh data.
So I just want to caution the Board in that while the accuracy of the
number may not be 100 percent because you don’t have the latest data,
having two year old data is not that bad, you know, given the
circumstance you would find yourself in if you compare with other
jurisdictions.
MR. TODD: Yes, and I reinforce that because I do do work, cost
allocation studies across -- in many jurisdictions across Canada, out
west. Other than jurisdictions where the companies have smart meters
and therefore have -- you know, that is part of AMI, the precision of
the New Brunswick Power CCS and the use of the load profile
information, you are ahead of all the other companies that I am aware
of, which would be four or five. So I mean, you shouldn’t feel like
you are falling behind your peers in this jurisdiction.
Page 731
we may have AMI or may not have AMI, and what we might have to do. And
so it’s going to take a couple -- probably two, three years before we
get some fresh data.
So I just want to caution the Board in that while the accuracy of the
number may not be 100 percent because you don’t have the latest data,
having two year old data is not that bad, you know, given the
circumstance you would find yourself in if you compare with other
jurisdictions.
MR. TODD: Yes, and I reinforce that because I do do work, cost
allocation studies across -- in many jurisdictions across Canada, out
west. Other than jurisdictions where the companies have smart meters
and therefore have -- you know, that is part of AMI, the precision of
the New Brunswick Power CCS and the use of the load profile
information, you are ahead of all the other companies that I am aware
of, which would be four or five. So I mean, you shouldn’t feel like
you are falling behind your peers in this jurisdiction.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: BINGO
David Raymond Amos
Methinks everybody knows that Minister Mikey or his boss Higgy can stop the "Not So Smart" Meter nonsense with a simple phone call or a stroke of a pen if need be N'esy Pas?
Brian Robertson
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Probably.
But as we see here, NB Power's strategy seems to be the long game; and just bring it back with the next government.
If conservation reduces demand, and our population stagnant, their revenue will depend on increasing the cost of power through smart meter penalties.
Probably.
But as we see here, NB Power's strategy seems to be the long game; and just bring it back with the next government.
If conservation reduces demand, and our population stagnant, their revenue will depend on increasing the cost of power through smart meter penalties.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Brian Robertson: They already signed the contracts for "Not So Smart" meters Hence they can't back out without penalties.
Greg Miller
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: Then they should pay the penalties and someone should pay the price personally at NB Power. Really--are our elective officials afraid of NB Power--does NB Power have some hold over our elected officials. Time to get some intestinal fortitude Government!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Greg Miller: Trust that I made certain that Higgy and his cohorts knew about this "Not So Smart" Meter nonsense long before the last election
IN THE MATTER OF an application by New Brunswick Power Corporation
for approval of the schedules of the rates for the fiscal year
commencing April 1, 2018. held at the Delta Hotel, Saint John, New
Brunswick, on February 9th 2018.
Transcript Page 601
VICE-CHAIRMAN: I was a bit surprised when I heard this morning and
yesterday that you are entering into a contract at the end of February
and is that with respect to the purchase of the smart meters?
MS. CLARK: That's correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN: So how can you enter into a contract without the firm
approval of this Board, if we are going to approve or not the AMI? How
prudent is that?
MS. CLARK: So we are at the end stages of the contract in terms of
just the final terms and conditions, but we have been very clear that
we -- with the vendor -- and they recognize that, because we also have
Nova Scotia Power, who is part of our consortium, who also needs Board
approval. So should we not get -- this is conditional on EUB approval.
So should we not get EUB approval, the contract would not proceed.
VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now there was discussion yesterday, I think it was with
Mr. Stoll regarding time of use and time based pricing, and so I went
through the evidence this morning, and in your main evidence, and I
think one of the objective of having the AMI going forward to a time
of use price structure -- rate structure. So am I understanding that
correctly
IN THE MATTER OF an application by New Brunswick Power Corporation
for approval of the schedules of the rates for the fiscal year
commencing April 1, 2018. held at the Delta Hotel, Saint John, New
Brunswick, on February 9th 2018.
Transcript Page 601
VICE-CHAIRMAN: I was a bit surprised when I heard this morning and
yesterday that you are entering into a contract at the end of February
and is that with respect to the purchase of the smart meters?
MS. CLARK: That's correct.
VICE-CHAIRMAN: So how can you enter into a contract without the firm
approval of this Board, if we are going to approve or not the AMI? How
prudent is that?
MS. CLARK: So we are at the end stages of the contract in terms of
just the final terms and conditions, but we have been very clear that
we -- with the vendor -- and they recognize that, because we also have
Nova Scotia Power, who is part of our consortium, who also needs Board
approval. So should we not get -- this is conditional on EUB approval.
So should we not get EUB approval, the contract would not proceed.
VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now there was discussion yesterday, I think it was with
Mr. Stoll regarding time of use and time based pricing, and so I went
through the evidence this morning, and in your main evidence, and I
think one of the objective of having the AMI going forward to a time
of use price structure -- rate structure. So am I understanding that
correctly
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: Continued
MS. CLARK: That is correct. And in the evidence, we did answer an
interrogatory on that and you will see that AMI is an enabler for time
varying rates in the Energy Smart NB Plan. And we did have time
varying rates included in our investment rationale. We took it out,
because we couldn't -- we couldn't pinpoint without more detail as to
what those time varying rates may be and the benefit of those, so we
took them out of the investment rationale at this point in time, but
certainly it's something that we are looking at in the future
VICE-CHAIRMAN: So the fundamental question here is that the Board
should heard -- or hear Matter 357 before approving the AMI? So if we
don't approve time of use, that basically what will happen with your
AMI, I mean it's -- if we don't approve the time of use, which we are
going to hear next year, how can we proceed in approving the AMI
before we look at the rate structure?
MS. CLARK: As we have talked about in our investment rationale, there
are a number of other benefits to both the customer and to the utility
over and above time varying rates that we believe are important for
the utility and for the movement forward of our Energy Smart New
Brunswick plan. Many of those benefits accrue to the customer. And
many of those benefits accrue to the utility and ultimately the
customer. So even if we were not to move in the direction of time
varying rates, we believe that the investment rationale supports the
AMI installation based on the other investment -- or based on the
other benefits that it provides
MS. CLARK: That is correct. And in the evidence, we did answer an
interrogatory on that and you will see that AMI is an enabler for time
varying rates in the Energy Smart NB Plan. And we did have time
varying rates included in our investment rationale. We took it out,
because we couldn't -- we couldn't pinpoint without more detail as to
what those time varying rates may be and the benefit of those, so we
took them out of the investment rationale at this point in time, but
certainly it's something that we are looking at in the future
VICE-CHAIRMAN: So the fundamental question here is that the Board
should heard -- or hear Matter 357 before approving the AMI? So if we
don't approve time of use, that basically what will happen with your
AMI, I mean it's -- if we don't approve the time of use, which we are
going to hear next year, how can we proceed in approving the AMI
before we look at the rate structure?
MS. CLARK: As we have talked about in our investment rationale, there
are a number of other benefits to both the customer and to the utility
over and above time varying rates that we believe are important for
the utility and for the movement forward of our Energy Smart New
Brunswick plan. Many of those benefits accrue to the customer. And
many of those benefits accrue to the utility and ultimately the
customer. So even if we were not to move in the direction of time
varying rates, we believe that the investment rationale supports the
AMI installation based on the other investment -- or based on the
other benefits that it provides