Gabrielle Fahmy is a reporter based in Moncton. She's been a journalist with the CBC since 2014.



 https://kmlaw.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/AffidavitofJamesHarnum_20160706.pdf




 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/pension-lawsuit-class-action-hearing-1.3675177

Retired civil servants seek class action status in pension fight

13,000 retirees from New Brunswick government reject change to shared-risk pension plan

Toronto lawyer Ari Kaplan is representing 13,000 retired provincial civil servants in their lawsuit over changes to their pension plan. (CBC)

35 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.



Dennis Atchison
Three years ago I had a great interview on The Dennis Report about public sector pensions. The information and wisdom is even more applicable today ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rm6qK4Gp7Y



Frank DeFalco
The Province should draw a line, fulfill its obligations to current pensioners and put the rest of the civil service on defined contribution retirement saving plans...like the rest of the working world is on. These plans are too expensive which is why the private sector has moved away from them.



SarahRose Werner
I can see why the province wouldn't want the judge to approve a class action lawsuit. If 13,000 people have to sue individually, there's a good chance that many will drop out due to lack of funds, ill health, etc. By me, that's the same reason the judge *should* approve a class action suit. The suit may or may not eventually be decided in the plaintiffs' favour, but all the plaintiffs as a class should be able to access the judicial process without undue burden.



Rick Aubie
There is a collapse coming........just wait. All this the government says is disaster and meltdown scenario is going to happen. It's only a matter of when! Governments and their debts (our debts run up by them) are going to get a good kick as well when the credit rating agencies downgrade our debt, they adjust up the rates, then, wait..... there's a global financial crisis and the rates go through the roof. Insolvency is what that's called and PNB won't be calling Grant Thornton. All pension money and the province will be lost in a financial takeover by the creditors and bond issuers/buyers!

Laugh and spend freely at your own peril folks!




Jay Boucher-Langlais
@Rick Aubie ; nothing of the sort is going to happen.



Willie Smith
Hey CBC open up the immigration article as well as the gas one.....and a few more......



Rick Aubie
@Willie Smith How about all of them? What is this a piece meal part time comment/story virtual news site? Joke comes to mind!



Frank O'Phil
@Rick Aubie ; it's not CBC's mandate to open news topics to commenters. Their mandate is to report the news. If you wish to comment, you can do so on any topic by creating a site of your own!



Rick Aubie
@Frank O'Phil They don't even report the news in a professional manner. Then to my point, either open them all or open none. How's them apples? and remember, it's "our" money running this outfit!



Frank O'Phil
@Rick Aubie ; it's my money as well as yours and I happen to agree with CBC.



David Peters
@Frank O'Phil

Problem is that cbc is obviously pulling for one side politically ... With huge amounts of public funding



Jim Joe Jackson
It is done. The Alward government started this mess and the Libs are not going to reverse it.



Jon Livingston
I don't think she'll allow this. For one, it means less money for lawyers who depend on making the justice system in New Brunswick difficult and expensive.



Joseph Vacher
Why should my tax dollars be the insurance for your over inflated pensions?



Willie Smith
@Joseph Vacher
Why should your tax dollars be used for Corporate Welfare to create Welfare jobs???? That is how government creates work now with a big thank you from your Corps.....



Jim Joe Jackson
@Joseph Vacher Because they earned it? Besides you honestly think the Federal government would let a province default on its pension obligations? Stop being brainwashed that this province is broke. There is plenty of wealth in this province.



Rick Aubie
@Jim Joe Jackson Sure and it's all hidden away in untouchable places OR out of circulation!



Jay Boucher-Langlais

Rick Aubie, the Carnival Clown!



Beth Rave
@Jay Boucher-Langlais; you can say that again!



reginald churchill
Why is it that whenever there's a problem between the government of New Brunswick and the civil servants it always involves the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Can someone explain to me what the Charter has to do with investment. Oh well I'm sure Roger Melanson and the liberal gang will straighten out this mess with the rest of our tax money.



James Reed
@reginald churchill

Their complain is that they are being discriminated against based on their age - basically grasping at straws to come up with a basis for a case.



Willie Smith
@reginald churchill
The Charter takes in "legal rights (e.g. the right to life, liberty and security of the person) and equality rights,"
I could be wrong but the "security of the person" was broken when the government broke the pension agreement and brought in the shared risk.. No security in the imaginary world of the stock market.... Eventually the stock market will crash again and a lot of people will be stuck with nothing except for the insiders.... LOL.....



Allan Wilson
If we can afford duality then we can afford the pension liability risk.



David Kane
@Allan Wilson -Well said Allan, best comment of the day !!!



Joseph Vacher
@Allan Wilson

but we can't afford duality......



Samual Johnston
@Allan Wilson where is the logic in that statement? if we can afford to buy beer and wine we can afford duality.....? nope does not make sense...



Jim Joe Jackson
@Allan Wilson We can a afford a lot of things if we didn't constantly cut taxes on businesses. We would even have the much pined for balanced budget and even a surplus, if you wipe out the Graham, Gallant and Alward tax concessions.



Rick Aubie
@Allan Wilson We can't afford either! That's the smartest observation of the day!



Pete A. Gore
@David Kane ; same comment every day!



Rick Aubie
@Joseph Vacher Plenty of flag wavers posting today and at every chance given by the CBC agenda!



Frank O'Phil
@Pete A. Gore; same very few but very vocal harping this issue to death!



Jay Boucher-Langlais
@Frank O'Phil; and it's not even on topic!



Samual Johnston
@Mike Smith I dunno they seem to be selling lots o beer and wine these days.....that is just a plain fact.



David Kane
@Pete A. Gore -Awesome, I didn't know Allan made the same correct comment every day.



Phil Nadeau
Meanwhile the famous New Brunswick Union (NBU) just did nothing for its members and kept going on with the Share risk model like nothing happened.

Retired civil servants launch pension-reform lawsuit

New Brunswick Pension Coalition says reforms violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms

CBC News· Posted: Jun 30, 2014 10:03 AM AT

 
 The New Brunswick Pension Coalition is suing the provincial government over changes to the public sector pension plan. 2:20


The New Brunswick Pension Coalition is launching a lawsuit over the changes to the public sector pension plan, alleging the Alward government breached the charter rights of 13,000 pensioners.
Ari Kaplan, a lawyer with Koski Minsky LLP, announced the court application on Monday.

The pensioners are alleging the provincial government’s pension reform violates provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because they are vulnerable based on their age.

"A pensioner requires as much financial certainty as possible as they budget for the end of their lives" Kaplan said in a statement.

The Toronto-based Koskie Minsky LLP specializes in the areas of class actions, pensions, labour and employment.

The Fredericton-based firm of Whitehead, Bird & Miles, of Fredericton will serve as the local counsel on the case.

Kaplan said he will request the court to order the provincial government to pay the legal fees for the pension lawsuit. In September, the coalition said fees for a lawsuit could be more than $200,000.

Kaplan said the provincial government's tactic of using legislation to override regular pension laws is both unfair for retirees and illegal.

"They've isolated you from your former workplace by excluding collective bargaining of the workplace, so there's no protection for you there," he said.

The retirees say if the pension plan must be changed, it should not affect those who have already contributed fully and are receiving the benefits they deserve.

The controversy surrounds the provincial government’s move to a shared-risk pension plan.

Under the former public service pension plan, retired civil servants are sheltered from any risk of market downturns by the provincial government with guaranteed cost-of-living increases.

Under the reforms, announced by Premier David Alward in May 2012, the risk would be shared by both sides.

The proposed model also includes increased contribution levels and higher age of retirement phased in slowly.

Retirees maintain it's not fair to change their benefits retroactively.

Clifford Kennedy, a member of the pension coalition, said in a statement that pensioners will not let the reforms go ahead unchallenged.

“The Alward government has broken its contract with public service pensioners and we intend to continue our efforts to ensure government honours its promise to retirees,” Kennedy said.


 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1211256-skmbt-50114063015580.html#document/p1



80 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.




Stanley Resident
This government only knows how to tear down things. They have not created anything of substance during their term. Don't like the Enbridge contract - tear it up. Doctors contract - tear it up (that one back-fired). Promised civil service pension - tear it up. Yet Margaret Ann-Blaney still collects her paycheck every two weeks and new schools get built where they are not needed,,,,, I will not be convinced this action was "required" as long as Blaney continues to draw a cheque from the NB Government. They should try building confidence in NB instead of constantly tearing it down, what business in their right mind would set-up in NB knowing they could be the next victim and have the rules suddenly change on them?

 
JeffSmith12
I have no sympathy - in the private sector you're lucky to get a matching contribution let alone a pension. We are seriously in debt - it's time these fat cat pensioners - and I have seen them driving around Fredericton in their expensive vehicles - they're not hurting - to contribute to the solution.


Raymond Bungay
Hmm, what are you folks going to do with the 22 cents a month you "MAY LOSE" each month. I have been told by a provincial retiree that might be what they would lose? As I am a Federal Retiree, I would love to have your situation, as staring in a few years time I will have to pay 50% more in my medical coverage and a lot of people don't have close to what you and I have? So please do us a favour, stop the bely aching and get on with what lives you have left. Too much to still do and little time left to do it.

Have any of you heard, there are no guarantees in life.« less



2Right4U
@RIGHT ON
So, you think it should be OK for politicians to throw honesty out the window? That they should be able to enact legislation DEMANDING people pay into pension plan then change the legislation changing the pension plan retroactively?

How would you feel if your bank suddenly decided that they didn't make enough for their shareholders and decided you needed to make retroactive mortgage payments?



FredZed
@2Right4U exactly what retroactive changes are being made? The pension program is presently being moved to a shared risk model, no one is retroactively clawing back benefits that have already been earned and paid that I am aware of. So back up your point or all I see is disinformation being spread by those who don't even understand the proposed changes.



JimF13
These pensioners were treated horrifically. With the teachers, the bottom line was $400 million needed to be saved. Teachers had input as to how this goal could and should be met. An agreement that gave everything the government needed was reached.

The PSSA were simply told the decision and shared risk is a lie. Total risk has been switched to the retirees. The pension plan has been pillaged far past what was necessary to make the plan viable.

Government should go back and reopen negotiations and come to a resolution that saves the necessary money. Pensioners and employees should decide hot to reach that goal.« less



FredZed
@JimF13 your dreaming if you think the pensioners will have any part in changes to their pension in any manner. You even start talking about it and they cry foul before they even know or understand what is happening. What are the pensioners going to do when the coffers are empty and there's nothing for anybodys pension or public services. They will just be happy with this province being run into the ground, but your benefits won't be changed right up to that point, good for you.



AnNyMoUS
I have a hard time showing sympathy when the current employees have had no choice in the matter and in fact the pension plan has already changed....The new plan has also changed the eligibility criteria and there are people who were already living pay cheque to pay cheque now required to pay into a plan. The contributions per pay can be hefty depending on your pay.

And for those of you with a hate on towards civil servants - please don't generalize us all in one bucket. I truly care about the service I provide and the job that I do and I work several hours of unpaid overtime a week to ensure that things are done and done right.



Doc Holiday
Who exactly is going to pay the taxes to keep all this going, most of the house in my area are for sale.



ToT
@Doc Holiday

NB lost almost 1k people the first 3 months of this year, worst lost in one quarter in NB's history. Even beating all of last year. Province is just better off bankrupting now.



jiminnb
Interestingly, last week, when it was announce the government was being sued by a group against fracking and the week before that when the government announced it was suing the accounting company that represented Acton in their 50 million scam. David Alward and his left hand man Ted F Lemming were all over the news media with talking points regarding these cases.

in this matter, they are back to the standard" no comments while before the courts."

One thing you can count on when Dave comes to consistency is his inconsistency.

It's like his comment on a national media interview a few weeks ago and I quote " One thing is clear, it's unclear...."



Paul Bourgoin
Mr. Blaine Higgs, since your rise to power you have cut the provincial budget spending like wow! The retired provincial pensioners treat your pinching cut to be a retired life threatening amputation. To the hospital they go. Arriving at the hospital behind a tow truck because your road budget cuts left many crater size pot holes on our roads. Once inside the hospital, I was told that waiting time had quadrupled because of your budget cuts. I hope all this new electoral stimulus moneys helping elect conservative candidates making them appear generous from involuntary donations from pensioner pension cuts.



2Right4U
@RoaterB
cut it like what? yes, cut property taxes (revenue) to corporate land holdings while increasing corporate welfare.



bostonbob
750,000ish, poulation and $13B and rising debt. This is just the begining of belt tightening in NB.



Hawkeye7
I would love to see only provinces that get rid of DB public pensions be eligible for equalization. It is not fair that Sask bit the bullet and converted to DC pensions 30 years ago and now have zero liability - but of course we still have to pay into equalization to fund ridiculous retirement benefits of of "have-not" provinces. go figure.

  

TimeWillTell
@Hawkeye7 They didn't make the changes retroactive.



ronniejoe
What I would like to see is the new Shared Pension Plan for Crown Prosecutors, Judges and MLAs. Oh yeah right, they don't have one. No need to change now that things are beginning to look better.



AnNyMoUS
@ronniejoe
The MLA one is coming - rolls out in the fall after the election.



Doc Holiday
The trouble is that the province is going broke. Bilingualism has been a wonderful opportunity for a small percentage who have enjoyed big fat paying government jobs. The rest of NB, and the economy as a whole, have not fared so well. The few just don't pay enough back in taxes to support their government wind fall. And the rest are sick of paying for it, and the lack of equal opportunity, and are leaving. You reap what you sow NB.



tyler
@Doc Holiday
You see, I don't speak french, therefore, french is the problem! Take a class and get over it!



TimeWillTell
@Doc Holiday The problem is our governments have cut their revenues e.g. no highway tolls, reduced corporate tax rates, etc., if you cut your revenues you have a budget problem.



2Right4U
@Doc Holiday
It isn't bilingualism that is the problem - there has never been any real attempt to create a bilingual province.

After 50 years of bilingualism you would think that 95% of our high school students would be fluently bilingual - nobody is prepared to do what it takes to make NB bilingual (and duel is not bilingual).

the_cod
Just "grandfather clause" these whiners (who are seeing no reduction in their base pension anyway) and let's move on. It's the workers that are left paying the higher rates from their cheques and who have to work to older age for full pension that are paying the way so all of the current pensioners don't get penalized; and most of the current workers knew there had to be some sort of a change. Hell, anybody who has had money invested towards retirement income since the year 2000 could tell you counting on investment returns are a gamble, even with the so-called low risk investments.


Dennis Atchison
@the_cod ... sorry, but not accurate. Current workers do not pay "a higher rate" from their cheques. The dollars in the fund come from the 30 plus years of those workers who paid into them. The fact the Liberal government took a "contribution holiday" during the McKenna years definitely had some consequence for pension shortfalls some 10 years later, along with the 2009 banking mess.



the_cod
@Dennis Atchison I can assure you that members of the PSSA contribute more per cheque and per year than they did last year, period. Very very accurate according to my pay stubs.



AnNyMoUS
@Dennis Atchison
Really? So paying 7.4% up the YMPE and 10.5% after the YMPE is not more than 5.8% up the the YMPE and 7.4% after?


Chronos
I hope they win.



ESmith
I find it hard to be overly sympathetic when the base pension is guaranteed and there is a target to pay at least a portion of the annual inflation rate - that's a much better deal than most employees in this province get. It's just not reasonable to ask everyone else in the province to keep paying hundreds of millions of dollars in extra payments so that these pensioners can continue to have full guaranteed indexing of their pensions.



Raymond Bungay
@ESmith Now there you are right on. As i said in another post here, this year on my Federal pension I got $1.33 for cost of living and I know I would not miss it. But here is something the provincial retirees did not see happen to them, when I turned 65 2 years ago I lost $433.00 and change from my Federal Pension! Why? Because I started to get the old age pension. We 9my wife and I0 were getting the Supplement but because the wife is now getting her old age pension, we don't get the supplement anymore and the provincial workers think they have a raw deal, now thats funny.« less



Dennis Atchison
The pension conversation is complicated. To get a sense of the details, in an accurate and informative way, this interview may be of interest to many:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rm6qK4Gp7Y

 
BradNB
If a private company had done this everyone would be screaming foul, but because some of these folks had to wait in line at the DMV they think the pensioners deserve it.

I am the first to admit civil servants had a much better compensation package that anyone in private sector gets, but to change someone's pension long after the opportunity to make new retirement plans is gone? Wrong, no matter how justified you feel in your entitled mind.



singleminded
@BradNB

If the employer were a private company it would have gone under long ago. This is the central issue - the fact that the cost of unsustainable government employee benefits are being passed to the taxpayer in a one-sided scheme without any no checks and balances.


 
Inquiringmind
These people spent an honest working life...alarm clocks, slippery roads, sacrifices and more importantly chose to go with the lower paying but secure government job as opposed to the lure of big money in privately owned companies. I have two brothers. One chose to work as an engineer with Department.Of Transportation, the other also a civil engineer, went off to British Columbia to work at a private but successful consulting company. Each Christmas gathering found brother two at a different company a newer fancier car, wonderful vacations, making his way up the corporate ladder and reaching and income level the rest of us could only envy. Risk and reward. Brother one has lived in the same bungalow all his life and lived moderately. His eye on a comfortable pension at the end of his working years. He could never afford those big trips but he could sleep knowing he and his family would be able to maintain a comfortable lifestyle during their older years. Taking this away from the NB'ers who made this place their home all their working life, who paid NB taxes and contributed to New Brunswick's well being is just WRONG! The people who thought this was a way to save political face must not sleep too well at night! I know I would not be able to knowing I wilfully stole from my neighbour in the name of the common good. I fully expect this will be the downfall of the current government and such a shame! What an awful way to treat your fellow man. In case you may be wondering, I am not one affected by the changes. It was all a matter of risk and reward...good people who expected a just reward after a long career. So terribly sad.



singleminded
@Citizen of NB.

I don't doubt your story but the data shows the exact opposite has happened...

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/the-new-upper-class/


TimeWillTell
@singleminded Irrelevant citation mostly about police and firefighters with no relevance to NB pension issue.


 
somecatchphrase
@Avalard - Vastly overpaid public sector workers, including police and firefighters, are a huge problem all across Canada and the United States. These "heroes" are milking us dry.



HaditinNB
Some of the people commenting here forget the fact that a lot of money was paid into these plans by the pensioners for their entire work careers. These plans are not free. Would you feel the same way if you paid into a plan your entire life? Would you accept an answer upon your retirement that the plan you paid into was not quite what you wanted or expected, say oh well the company can't afford it and call it a day? There was another group of people sitting across the table when these pension plans were negotiated and it is called the employer. Do you accept everything the government tells you as fact when it comes to money in your own pocket? I am also involved in a plan that is currently under review and answers to the simplest questions are still not being achieved. It is easier to feed the pensioners to the wolves as there seems to be so many people that think that because you are a civil servant you must not have earned your money like they have. Apparently those commenting on here in that regard are such hard workers, it is surprising they even have the time to read the news let alone comment. I will never understand this government's philosophy of taking every extra cent you have out of your pocket but still expect you to put it back into the economy.

TimeWillTell
Bravo for them , if you retired with a pension you have the right to expect that it will be paid if company is not bankrupt, which a province cannot be as its loans are also guaranteed by the feds.



singleminded
@Avalard

NB is technically bankrupt. So everything is on the table.
Reality bites, eh?


Errol Willis
@singleminded

Have you done the actuarial? Do you have a reference to an article stating NB is bankrupt?

As much as we think we are, a province cannot go bankrupt as it will fall back under the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada.


Dennis Atchison
@singleminded ... hmmm ... no government is ever "bankrupt". During the McKenna years the employer/government took "contribution holidays", diverting the funds to other places (a shell game in a sense). the "Consolidated Fund (upwards of $8-billion)" covers performance shortfalls should this happen, as was the case after the banking mess of 2009. It does not come from people's taxes, as is often reported or stated in the media. Public sector pension funds the past three years are exceptional in their performance. By all accounts, we should be looking to public sector pensions, and the defined benefit approach, as successful.


singleminded
@High Earner

Yes, technically bankrupt. And barrelling toward 'actually bankrupt':

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-barrelling-toward-bankruptcy-analyst-warns-1.2626184

Bottom line: Cuts have to be made and gold plated government pensions that require taxpayer top-ups are not except. Why should they be?

ToT
@High Earner
New Brunswick barrelling toward bankruptcy, analyst warns

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswic/new-brunswick-barrelling-toward-bankruptcy-analyst-warns-1.2626184

New Brunswick cautioned to make cuts now to avoid bankruptcy

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-cautioned-to-make-cuts-now-to-avoid-bankruptcy-1.2639531

Political Panel, 5 parties talking about debt and deficit and what must be done.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/NB/Political+Panel/ID/2457265680/


TimeWillTell
@Avalard NB has the over the years always had the highest ccredit rating in Atlantic Canada, the rating agencies know that the Province can balance its books any time it wants to do.


2Right4U
@Avalard
YES, all they have to do is stop giving out corporate welfare and restore the hundreds of millions of property tax cuts they gave corporations.



somecatchphrase
What's needed is a "New Brunswick Private Sector Taxpayers Coalition" to counter the influence and demands of this special interest group known as the "New Brunswick Pension Coalition."

If these pensioners believed in unrealistic and grandiose promises made by the government(s) of the day, tough cookies. You were sold a bill of goods.

It's kind of like buying a car that turns out to be a lemon.

Times have changed. Welcome to the real world, retired public sector workers. Instead of suing the people of New Brunswick, consult with some private sector retirees for some Whiskas recipes.


BradNB
@somecatchphrase So stealing from seniors is ok as long as they are a politically unpopular group? For your sake I hope people are more understanding when you are a senior. Changing someone's retirement income after they've already retired is unacceptable, it's victimizing. There is no longer any opportunity to change plans and save more for retirement when you're already a senior.



TimeWillTell
@somecatchphrase take a look at GM and the real world.



LouisLouis
i'm tired of listening to this bunch of complainers. especially Clifford kennedy. he was part of a group that was looking for gov't handouts to build an appliance recycling facility in caraquet, then they tried to scam a community in southern Ontario... not trustworthy.


screeched
Good move. Time for the Alward government to step down. They have done nothing for the people of NB, especially economically. The 1% are running the show, and now they want to kick the elderly. Time to raise taxes for the rich and put tolls back on the highways, one at every exit! We need dollars, not excuses or cheapshot ways to manipulate people. Fracking might hold some promise, but frankly that is untested ground. Tolls work, and should be brought back.



2Right4U
@screeched
There is an election in a couple of months time. I just don't believe any of the "big three" have a balanced program that is any different from each others take from the people and give to the corporations.



BradNB
To change someone's pension plan when they have already retired is deplorable. How can this not be considered stealing?


Dumb Maritimer
@BradNB If you are party to an unsustainable plan that destroys the next generation before they are born, and then sneak out the door before the chickens come home to roost, are you entitled to continue pilfering your grandchildren because "you retired and should be protected"? As a civil servant you elected the governments and union reps that put all this in place, this is your fault. I wasn't even born when most of these stupid 1-sided pensions were negotiated, and I won't be paying the bills you've handed to me. Accept a reasonable compromise, or prepare for a very lonely, uncomfortable retirement when your grandchildren are educated on the debt slavery you sold them into, assuming of course you were unselfish enough to even have children.« less



BradNB
@Dumb Maritimer Boy does your name suit you.

First of all I am 30, far from retired, and I work in the private sector.

If you think the pensioners were scheming to cash in on their grandchildren you have way too much conspiracy going on in your noggin. Governments offered these plans without thinking to the future, and they alone are the cause. Next you're going to tell me you're such a moral giant you would have investigated the potential outcomes, realized it was unsustainable and opted out if it were you right? Give me a break.

Just because "civil servants" are a politically unpopular group doesn't mean stealing from seniors is ok. There is no longer any opportunity for these people to change plans and save more for retirement. Making the changes retroactive is wrong. Period.« less



TimeWillTell
@Dumb Maritimer The unstainablity is only theoretical due to a market blip, it is more about the ability to take on more debt to support our oligarchs.



TimeWillTell
@Avalard You might notice that existing MLAs did not rreduce their own unfunded pension plan.

 

GreenerPastures
What's interesting is that this sort of thing is just going to get worse as the "growthers'" plans of expansion everywhere and forever necessarily get replaced with something more realistic. I can just hear the cries of the think tank economists in the distance urging us to import more workers to address the needs of a labor market experiencing shortages (?). Deception on top of deception is how we are heading into the future.

Someone should be charged with running an illegal ponzi scheme because that's what it boils down to. Those always work well in the growth stage and come crashing down when the inputs don't match up with the outputs when contributors dry up. The only way to keep one going is to reinvent the rules (pay less out) part way and hope everyone accepts it. Bernard Madoff could explain it all to you. There's always a day of reckoning.


Dumb Maritimer
@StrictlyFacts The people who should be charged with running the illegal ponzi scheme are all those 55 and over who elected the governments and union reps that created these awful one-sided pensions. The retirees need to compromise, they are already so much better off than the youth of today will ever be.



still46
@Dumb Maritimer I guess the courts will decide, won't they?



Jack Clark
I’ve made more than my share of sacrifices via increased taxes and market hits to my pension plan, and I’m pretty darned disgusted with NB civil servants and their “me first, and the hell with everyone else” attitude. And I’m not alone in saying that sympathy is lacking for the vast majority of civil servants I’ve ever encountered, who do/did NOT feel they were there to serve the public, and possessed the poorest work ethic I’ve EVER encountered in my more than 42 years in the New Brunswick workforce.« less



Errol Willis
@Jack Clark Fortunately, your "feelings" about civil service employees have no impact on the law. Suppose you were 21 and joined a company, signed a contract that guaranteed you a full pension with indexing upon retirement. So for the next 35 years or so, you did not put a lot of money away for retirement, because you had a contract. Then all of a sudden your retirement day comes up, and the employer says "sorry - we don't like that agreement we signed 35 years ago and it is now null and void". Forget that this is the government, pretend it's Molsons, or Pepsi, or any large company. Similarly, if you had a roof installed which was contractually guaranteed for 20 years and at year 19 it had to be redone. Would you be upset if the company did not honour their contractual commitment to you?

But then you say - "it's my taxes that pay their pension", right? True, but just like you have no option but to pay taxes, they have no option but to be part of the pension plan.

If you have indeed worked 42 years in NB, don't be so bitter about the past. Look forward and don't worry about things you have no control over.

BTW - full disclosure - I am not a government employee, so I have no horse in this race.


BradNB
@Jack Clark So it's okay to take money from someone if you don't like them? If someone reached into your pocket would that be ok, just because they don't approve of some aspect of your life?



Anne Bérubé
@NicoleBerube



Anne Bérubé
@NicoleBerube How come it is o.k. to insult civil servants but not somebody who thinks they are lazy?

 

still46
@Jack Clark I guess the courts will decide, won't they?



BradNB
@NicoleBerube I take it you got a "content disabled" message? Yeah, there are groups you are allowed to attack on here, and groups you are not allowed to attack, all thanks to the CBC moderator.


valleyboy1
Chances are that the pensions were enhanced when there were hypothetical surpluses in the past and now these enhancements are discovered to be too expensive.

The public service pensioners are really looking for the hard working tax paying citizens of NB ( the 700,000 who were not public servants) to pay 100% of the cost of these enhancements.


screeched
@valleyboy1 "Chances are" does not provide solid thinking for a decision like robbing seniors. Chances are the repeated governmental tax cuts to the corporate world are also coming back to haunt us.


Dumb Maritimer
@screeched "Chances are" is the logic that these greedy seniors used to get these fat 1-sided pensions in the first place. It's delicious that the same logic would be used to claw them back, don't you think?


still46
@valleyboy1 I guess the courts will decide, won't they


valleyboy1
@screeched
At least you agree that the payments the coalition is looking for would have to come from taxpayers and not from the past or future contributors to the pension plan


Carnivore
@Dumb Maritimer
I guess your sobriquet says it all.


herringchoker
"The Fredericton-based firm of Whitehead, Bird & Miles, of Fredericton will serve as the local counsel on the case."

Ignoring the redundancy in that sentence, I must say that its good to see Shawn Graham lawyers are still busy with government work. That said the pension coalition would be advised to make sure their lawyers are working strictly on a contingency basis. Graham lawyers charged the province $74K, but still lost his conflict-of-interest case.


TimeWillTell
@herringchoker Always makes one wonder, doesn,t it?


Roy Kirk
" . . . rigorous consideration of alternatives . . . proportionate to its objective . . . no other rational policy alternative available."
=====

The 1st two should be satisfied as a matter of course for any public policy decision. That they seldom are goes a long way to explaining why NB is in such a mess.

The last one? There are always rational alternatives, but just because they are rational doesn't mean they're fair, equitable, or just.


legions
It has become public knowledge that just because I may be contributing to a pension through my workplace wages none of this means I will actually have a pension to retire on.
Apparently poor politics, poor pension design, poor management, poor planning and lots of wishful thinking are not enough in the end if it is reality that needs be overcome


still46
@legions I guess the courts will decide, won't they?


 2Right4U

This should include everyone (retired or still working) who paid into the plan (defined benefit) as required under law.

The go forward, for those who are still working under the new plan should mean they have two (2) pension plans - the old one (defined benefit) that they were required to contribute to by law and the new one (shared risk) that they are required to contribute to under law.

The employees have no choice - they are required to contribute and have no say in how their retirement is managed.« less


....and the horse you rode in on.

@2Right4U

I believe that is the way it is. If you are still working and have 20 years in then your pension up until this year is based on the defined benefit formula. Now your pension until retirement will be based on shared risk. As a taxpayer in the private sector that sounds about right.



2Right4U
@Habitant
EXCEPT they changed the defined benefit which is why this law suit is going on.