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Government defends spending on law firm handling Policy 713 case

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Government defends spending on law firm handling Policy 713 case

Liberals denounce ‘hypocrisy’ of PC attacks on education council’s hiring of Ontario lawyers

The Higgs government has started its final legislative sprint before this year's election defending its spending on outside law firms that are handling a range of legal disputes on behalf of the province.

Opposition Liberal Leader Susan Holt pressed the government to reveal how much it is spending on hiring outside law firms to represent the province before the courts. 

Education Minister Bill Hogan has criticized the Anglophone East district education council for spending $279,917, as of April 16, to pay an Ontario law firm to challenge the province over Policy 713.

Holt says the province's spending on outside lawyers will probably be greater than that.

"This is Hypocrisy 101. With 40 to 45 lawyers on the government payroll, why hire outside counsel?" she said, demanding to know the amount.

A man in a suit and glasses stands in a hallway talking to reporterss. Education Minister Bill Hogan said last week he will seek to dissolve the Anglophone East district education council. (Ed Hunter/CBC)

Hogan did not provide one but instead defended his position that the education council should repeal its own implementation policy on Policy 713. 

"We are going to continue to defend parent rights," he said. "I'll defend it today, I'll defend it tomorrow, I'll defend it from this day forward until the election, through the next election and after that." 

The provincial policy requires school staff to get parental consent before students under the age of 16 can choose new names and pronouns to use at school to reflect their gender identity.

The district is arguing that Policy 713 violates the rights of 2SLGBTQ+ students, and it's asking for an injunction to block Hogan from repealing its own implementation policy, which gives students more leeway and says the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumps the policy.

Hogan later told reporters that the dollar figure Holt was looking for wasn't under the purview of his department.

A grey-haired man in glasses and a suit stands in a room in front of the Canadian and the New Brunswick flags. Attorney General Ted Flemming says it's been common for all governments to have hired outside firms in exceptional cases that require a 'concentrated amount of effort.' (Ed Hunter/CBC)

Attorney General Ted Flemming didn't speak to reporters Tuesday and didn't provide an amount for the legal expenses during Question Period.

He suggested the spending is necessary because the province refuses to settle lawsuits brought against it in court.

"The province is the defendant. The province is being sued. We are not suing anybody," he said.

"We don't fold like a cheap tent the way the Liberals used to on a lot of legal stuff."

The government, however, is planning to launch its own legal action soon.

Hogan said last week he will seek to dissolve the Anglophone East district education council over its spending on its lawsuit.

That requires a cabinet order and the filing of an application to the Court of King's Bench.

It wasn't clear whether an outside firm will handle that, but lawyer Clarence Bennett from the law firm Stewart McKelvey is defending the province in the education council's action and used the word "we" in court last week when talking about the minister's dissolution application.

PC Party advertises petition

The Progressive Conservative party is using the education council's spending on its court case to collect names and email addresses from New Brunswickers.

A party advertisement on social media mentions the case and invites people to sign a petition agreeing with "the common sense approach that education dollars should be spent on education."

Hogan said he did not "represent" the party, but as a PC member, he said the party "comes up with its own strategy and I support the strategies that they choose to use."

He repeated his position that Anglophone East isn't authorized to spend money from its budget on anything other than education, and that he has the power to dissolve them if they don't comply.

"What we're doing is we're following the steps as are outlined in the Education Act, which is a law," he said in Question Period.

Flemming said while staff government lawyers handle routine legal services, it's been common for all governments to have hired outside firms in exceptional cases that require a "concentrated amount of effort."

Holt also raised the government's spending on law firms defending a lawsuit by the Canadian Union of Public Employees over government pension reforms.

She also noted the province is using two outside law firms on Indigenous issues — not just on a major land claim dispute but also on a range of consultations and discussions with First Nations.

Tuesday's sitting was the start of four remaining sitting weeks — broken up by one break week — before MLAs adjourn for the summer, and likely for good, on June 7. 

They are unlikely to sit again before the legislature is dissolved on Sept. 19 for the Oct. 21 election, where Premier Blaine Higgs will attempt to extend his six-year stretch in power.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR


Jacques Poitras

Provincial Affairs reporter

Jacques Poitras has been CBC's provincial affairs reporter in New Brunswick since 2000. He grew up in Moncton and covered Parliament in Ottawa for the New Brunswick Telegraph-Journal. He has reported on every New Brunswick election since 1995 and won awards from the Radio Television Digital News Association, the National Newspaper Awards and Amnesty International. He is also the author of five non-fiction books about New Brunswick politics and history.

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices

 

111 Comments 

 
 
David Amos
The final days of Higgy's legislative sprint end during Apple Blossom Time. I bet he has the writ dropped immediately afterwards  
 
 
 
David Amos
Seems that Susan Holt hasn't read the letters I got from government lawyers
 
 
 
David Amos
"We don't fold like a cheap tent the way the Liberals used to on a lot of legal stuff."

Oh My My Methinks Teddy is referring to the circus tent N'esy Pas?

Wilbur Ross
Reply to David Amos 
One of those great big outdoor gospel tents.  
 
David Amos
Reply to Wilbur Ross
A 3 ringer with elephants and clowns etc 
 
Wilbur Ross
Reply to David Amos
You know it. 
 
David Amos
Reply to Wilbur Ross
I will trade you some popcorn for peanuts. I ran out treating the elephants
 
 
 
Wilbur Ross
The only thing the Tories spend money on is lawyers to help them circumvent the Constitution. They've got Bay St. law firms working round the clock to figure out ways to take away our constitutional rights. No expense will be spared and it will cost taxpayers millions for Higgs to just end up using Section 33 anyway. The Charter of Right and Freedoms is no match for craven GOP Republicans like Higgs, Moe, Smith, Ford and now Poilievre. Maybe they'll get invited to speak at CPAC like Viktor Orbán.
 
David Amos
Reply to Wilbur Ross
New Brunswick does not have a Constitution
 
David Amos
Reply to Wilbur Ross
Do you recall the results of the referendum on the Charlottetown Accord???
 
David Amos
Reply to David Amos
BTW the last attempt at constitutional change was made in 2017. Quebec premier Philippe Couillard wanted Quebec to sign the constitution that year as part of Canada’s 150th birthday. But his efforts were flatly rejected by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. 
 
 
Bill Watson 
I support the NB government in this matter.
  
David Wilson
Reply to Bill Watson  
Why? 
 
David Wilson
Reply to Bill Watson
No idea eh?  
 
Rob A Ross  
Reply to Bill Watson  
Of course you do. You just saw “PC government” and skipped bothering to even think about the issue. 
 
David Amos
Reply to Rob A Ross
Not me Some say I say Methinks too much However everybody knows I am no PC fanboy but at least I have admitted many times that I agree with Higgy on this issue N'esy Pas?
MR Cain  
Among Canadian youth aged 12 to 17 years, approximately 0.5% were classified as non-cisgender, with 0.2% identifying as nonbinary and 0.2% transgender. Stands to reason that if the population of New Brunswick is less than 3% of Canada, and there is about 6% of the population aged 12 to 17 years, there are about 350 children in New Brunswick directly affected by the policy in question. 40 to 50% could be considered at risk of mental or physical abuse. Shameful conduct of this government. 
 
Frank Blacklock

 
MR Cain  
Reply to Frank Blacklock
no

Mike Fowler
Reply to Frank Blacklock
Which province are you in where schools are conducting medical procedures on students?
 
Mandel Rooney 
Reply to Frank Blacklock
Seek help. I'm sure you've "done your research" and all but ...  
 
David Amos 
Reply to Mandel Rooney
He is not alone  
 
 
 
clay bergen
Parental rights come first.  
 
 MR Cain  
Reply to clay bergen 
after the child's 
 
clay bergen
Reply to MR Cain 
When they are 16  
 
MR Cain  
Reply to clay bergen 
when they are born 
 
Dave Sellers
Reply to MR Cain 
Hahaha! 
 
Graham McCormack
Reply to clay bergen
Strike 2 
 
MR Cain  
Reply to Dave Sellers  
Hahaha! 
 
David Amos 
Reply to MR Cain 
What about before they are born?
 
 
 
David Wilson
What a horribly discriminatory policy.
 
Don Corey
Reply to David Wilson
Subjective opinion.
 
David Wilson 
Reply to Don Corey
Only subjective if you are pro discrimination
 
Don Corey
Reply to David Wilson 
You’ve just confirmed my comment.
 
David Amos

Reply to Don Corey  
Welcome back to the circus
 
David Amos

Reply to Don Corey  
Geez as usual I can't welcome you back to the bigtop
 
 
 
Jimmy Vee  
Reply to Don Corey
You’ve just confirmed my comment.
 
Mike Fowler 
Reply to Don Corey
And "conservative" provinces like Ontario and Alberta.

It's not real conservatism - it's an attack on it while wearing a disguise.

 
 
William Peters  
Here we ago again with he interviewing of people who have an economic interest in doing this. What we have is a collective wealth which is not to be wasted chasing personal examples of well building. None of us are permanent. Converting your landscape to saleable commodities and a externalities is an equation that promises some temporary material gain in exchange for certain environmental impacts. There is no sugar coating the downside to make it go away. A mine is a stress on the planet. They are examples of economic economy that we are doing that are contributing to our current unsustainable path. That path is not helped by dollars. Arguments that are meant to appeal to your wants always omit to ask you if you might prefer to not lay the planet to waste and to focus instead on things that respect the much slower speed we must take in exploiting energy for our benefit. It cannot just be a mindless race for more that has appeal to people who are given less in order that they might want to allow for more activity to be done. The economic benefit that is sought can be achieved by better economic distributions of the wealth benefit of existing levels of activity. If we had better distribution we would not concede that the world be wasted in order to possibly content us. To want more is to want to be given less by those who will promise more. Find a way to achieve your goals politically and put an end to the many occasions of you being poisoned by industrial chemicals and bad thinking. 
 
Don Corey
Reply to William Peters 
Nice but meaningless diatribe. This is the mentality that contributes toward our stagnant (at best) GDP/capita.  
 
MR Cain  
Reply to William Peters
Time to get off the pulpit and research the benefits. https://www.dalhousiepozzolan.com/en 

Allan Green
Reply to  MR Cain  
You linked a marketing page by the company proposing this project. That's propaganda, not research.
 
Allan Green 
Reply to Don Corey
And your comment is shortsighted. That's the mentality that's lead to worldwide environmental degradation.
 
William Peters 
Reply to Don Corey 
That's your own belief system speaking from being threated. Endless growth chases endless GDP growth. It's a meaningless measure which is faulty accounting neglecting what is lost to produce growth. You grow and lose some things, but with GDP you seemingly always win. Also, when you have someone paying a rent that's a contributor to GDP as rental payments are counted as valuable economic activity when they are not. The trick is how you such people into believing they are always going forward by wasting what is given to us and extracting value for the passage of time. We' re on to you amateur economists. 
 
William Peters 
Reply to Allan Green 
The game is up. Growth in energy demand or growth in emissions is not desirable unless we value dollars (a form of obligation) more than well being where we are. Dollars can never secure us well being. That's an illusion. It gets you stuff at the company store. The attitude that pushes us to want more demands more obscenity. We don't suffer from a lack of affluence. We suffer from obscene levels of affluence and horrible distribution of wealth. Nobody should be telling people they'll be better off, like a socialist, when they are fronting for free market capitalism. It surely is propaganda of the sort that typically silences people.  
 
MR Cain
Reply to Allan Green  
of course it is; you will find more info on the other company involved and the fact that the project appears to be a done dea; research all the info and make up your own mind. 
 
Don Corey
Reply to Allan Green  
Yep, you're in that group that wants everything except economic development. 
 
Don Corey
Reply to Don Corey
I'm not feeling threatened by anything except politicians and others who thrive on stifling economic growth. Canada's GDP/capita has been stagnant since 2015 and projections have us falling far behind every country in the OECD.  
 
MR Cain
Reply to Allan Green
Cimbec Canada Inc. and Carboniq Inc. are developing a volcanic rock extraction project located in Dalhousie, New Brunswick. It shows milestone dates. It has already been provided federal funding. This IS the project. Do some research. There are other sites that are marketing the companies involved. 
 
Robert Brannen
Reply to Don Corey
If you take a look at Canada's GDP growth/capita you will find it has been essentially in a decline since 2003. The few occasions in which it has increased have followed periods like the real estate melt down and the pandemic.

Growth of GDP/capita, Canada: 2003 - 16.68%, 2004 - 13.58%, 2005 - 13.19%, 2006 - 11.33%, 2007 - 10.26%, 2008 - 4.59%, 2009 - minus 12.49%, 2010 - 16.36%, 2011 - 9.800%, 2012 - 0.85%, 2013 - minus 0.06%, 2014 - minus 3.19%, 2015 - minus 14.44%, 2016 - minus2.94%, 2017 - 6.65%, 2018 - 3.14%, 2019 - minus 0.37%, 2020 - minus 6.06%, 2021 - 20.55%, 2022 - 5.73%.

Year over year increases in total GDP do not necessarily translate to an increase in rate of growth in GDP/capita.

In the above time span, the rate of growth in GDP/capita was only on the increase in 2010, 2016, 2017 and 2021.

Allan Green 
Reply to Don Corey
And you're part of that group that wants economic development at the expense of everything else, including a habitable planet.  
 
Don Corey
Reply to Robert Brannen 
As per StatsCan (April, 2024) our GDP per capita has now fallen to 2017 levels (so nothing to brag about there).

Furthermore, our GDP per capita (inflation adjusted) has grown by only 1.9% since the current federal government took office in 2015. During the same period, for comparison's sake, the United States growth has been a whopping 8 times higher.

And, looking ahead, from now to 2030 Canada is projected to have the slowest rate of GDP per capita growth among the 38 developed countries in the OECD.

Simply put, our economy is stalling relative to past performance and all other comparable countries around the world.

It's time to stop pretending that all is well.

Don Corey
Reply to William Peters
First time I've ever been called an economist, amateur or otherwise. I suppose it could be worse since you didn't call me an accountant.

Your socialist leanings are quite obvious, and you need to realize that there are (thank goodness) many who disagree with you.

Don Corey
Reply to Allan Green
Where did I say that? Can you be more specific? A lawsuit requires a bit more detail.  
 
Allan Green 
Reply to Don Corey
Where did I say I wanted everything except economic development? Black and white generalizations are a two way street. 
 
 
 
Walter Vrbetic  
Interesting science... I'v never heard of pozzolan let alone its ability to replace limestone in cement production.

Though I had read that early Romans used volcanic ash in their cement formula.

Louis Léger 
Reply to Walter Vrbetic 
By many metrics, pozzolan also makes better quality concrete. It's a neat substance! 
 
 
 
John Cash  
Such a beautiful piece of land there. I hope they don't wreck it with jobs and other nonsense.
 
Don Corey
Reply to John Cash 
There are always those who thrive on standing in the way of progress, with exaggerated and/or fabricated excuses for why the status quo is the way it has to be. 
 
 
 
John Cash 
These jobs in depressed areas always get fast tracked through the environmental impact stages.... It's just good for votes. 
 
Don Corey
Reply to John Cash  
Votes are a non-issue for this part of the province. 
 
David Amos
Reply to Don Corey  
For Higgy anyway
 
Don Corey
Reply to David Amos
That's for sure. 

 


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