Front Burner Transcript for June 29, 2023

Host: Jayme Poisson

SAROJA COELHO:Hi, I'm Saroja Coelho.

SAROJA COELHO:What you're hearing is the top politician in New Brunswick, Premier Blaine Higgs, in an address that is laden with misleading comments about trans people. He's defending changes to a policy that was designed to protect LGBTQ students. But as of this Saturday, his government says that children under 16 will need permission from their parents if school staff are going to use their preferred pronouns.

SAROJA COELHO:The Canadian Civil Liberties Association has said reviewing a policy like this is unprecedented in Canada. LGBTQ advocates say forcing kids to come out to unwelcoming parents is a real danger. And on the national stage, this has drawn fire from the prime minister.

SAROJA COELHO:And then there's the reaction from the official opposition.

SAROJA COELHO:Some MLAs in Higgs' own party are in revolt over a long line of controversies, and it appears enough leaders have signed letters to trigger a vote on his leadership. So why is Blaine Higgs bent on changes that critics are calling discriminatory? And what could this mean for the wider identity of conservative politics in Canada and the future of LGBTQ rights? To explain, I am joined today by two of my colleagues from New Brunswick. Hadeel Ibrahim has been covering the impacts of the upcoming changes, and Jacques Poitras is the provincial affairs reporter. Hi, Hadeel. Hi, Jacques.

HADEEL IBRAHIM:Hi.

JACQUES POITRAS:Hello.

SAROJA COELHO:So Hadeel, I'm going to begin with you. Policy 713 was originally enacted in 2020. The idea was to protect LGBTQ students. Then in May of this year, we found out that the education department under Premier Higgs was reviewing it. The next step to this story is that this month, what three specific changes were announced.

HADEEL IBRAHIM:So I'll start with the self-identification section of the policy. The original policy said that all school staff and teachers have to respect all children's chosen names and pronouns, and use them regardless of age or parental consent. It also stipulated that if a child under 16 wanted to change their name and pronoun officially in school records, they would have to get parental consent. But the principal has to explain to the child that means that their parents will have to be told about their identity. And if the child says no to including their parents, then the school would come up with a plan to continue to use their chosen name and pronoun informally, and continue to use their birth names in official records. The new policy, it keeps the mandate to respect students' chosen names and pronouns, but only for kids who are 16 years old and older. And the section about requiring parental consent for children under 16 for official changes is still there, and it says that if a child says no to including their parents, they now have to be, quote: "directed to a school psychologist or social worker to come up with a plan to include their family if and when they're ready." So the minister says that that effectively means that while the child is working to include their parents, the teachers and school staff would have to continue using their birth name and pronoun regardless of what they requested, even informally, verbally in the classroom. The second change was for-- The old policy said that kids should be able to participate in all extra curriculars in a safe and welcoming environment, and that are consistent with their gender identity. The minister of education removed the reference to 'consistent with their gender identity,' so now it just ends at safe and welcoming. And the third change was actually considered a win for the LGBTQ community, because they were worried that there would be changes to washroom access. But that policy remained pretty much the same. There was an addition of a requirement that each school would have to have at least one gender neutral or universal change room, on top of the requirement that was already there for at least one gender neutral washroom.

SAROJA COELHO:Jacques, I want to turn to you. Adding to this controversy, there has been Higgs' own comments to defend these changes. What has he said about transgender youth and why he thinks these changes are necessary?

JACQUES POITRAS:Well, he has talked almost exclusively about the role of parents. And one of the striking things in almost all of his comments that Hadeel pointed out to me, actually: you never hear him talk about the children or from the perspective of a trans student in schools. He-- There was a very contentious scrum with journalists at the legislature one day, where he essentially was questioning the journalists in the scrum who were parents, about their own parenting if they didn't understand where he was coming from on this.

JACQUES POITRAS:You know, some of his colleagues who have supported the review have allowed for the possibility that there would be cases where a student would not feel safe talking to their parents about their gender identity or their sexual orientation. But the premier himself, that has not entered the conversation. So that's where he's coming from. And then, you know, he's made comments in the legislature during the debate on an opposition motion on this, where he talked about gender dysphoria, and said we have a situation that's growing because there's been such acceptance that this is fine.

JACQUES POITRAS:And so those are comments that have really provoked strong reaction from advocates.

SAROJA COELHO:I'm going to go back to Hadeel for that, because you're quite right, Jacques. Hadeel, just to be clear here, what does the research say about why we are seeing more youth come out as transgender?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:So there is a need for more research on this because it is a fairly recent phenomenon, I guess, where there's a big increase in the number of young people who identify as transgender. But the experts that I spoke to - psychologists, pediatricians - they said that there is no evidence that there is this idea of social contagion or this kind of rapid onset temporary gender identity confusion.

HADEEL IBRAHIM:What the experts are saying is - like, most likely, and the leading theory - is that there has been an increase in representation, an increase in acceptance, and a decrease in discrimination, a relative decrease in discrimination, that is encouraging people to be more open about their identity. So it's not necessarily increasing the number of transgender kids, it's just allowing them to be more visible.

SAROJA COELHO:Jacques, do you think you could give me a bit of a backstory on Higgs? Before he came to the Conservative Party, where was he from and how did he spend his career?

JACQUES POITRAS:Well, his professional career was with Irving Oil, which is a, you know, very well-known, high-profile company in New Brunswick. They run Canada's largest oil refinery, which is where he worked in a senior management role. The other thing about Blaine Higgs is he was part of a, in effect, a protest party in the late 1980s. He ran for the leadership of the Confederation of Regions Party, which was an offshoot of the Progressive Conservatives back when they were divided on a number of questions, including official bilingualism. And they were briefly the official opposition in New Brunswick, and sort of populist, small-c conservative, and very vehemently opposed to New Brunswick's official bilingualism, which is entrenched in the Constitution. So when he ran for the Progressive Conservatives in 2010, he'd never held elective office. He joined the PC party that year to run. So he's always been regarded by some in the party - moderates and francophones, in particular - with a bit of wariness; as a visitor to the party who isn't necessarily someone who really has always appreciated sort of the bedrock values of the party as a centre party. A party that tries to bridge language differences and tries to be moderate in its approach.

SAROJA COELHO:I want to go straight to some of his personal beliefs, things that he's brought with him. Both of you have covered his beliefs on abortion. What have you seen there?

JACQUES POITRAS:Well, for one thing, you know, in 2014, the new Liberal premier made a change to abortion regulations, where he eliminated a requirement that a woman had to have the consent of two doctors to get an abortion covered by Medicare in a hospital. And Blaine Higgs, then an opposition member, gave a very impassioned speech, where his personal views was clear that he was against it, and would be called, you know, anti-abortion or pro-life.

JACQUES POITRAS:As premier, he's made that view clear, although he hasn't turned back any policies. He has also resisted a sort of growing push for more access.

SAROJA COELHO:Well, there's also a lot of growing discontent around him. Certainly a vibrant debate happening within the party before the 713 changes this month. Which have been the most controversial?

JACQUES POITRAS:Well, there are quite a number. But one is, you know, English schools in New Brunswick: there's a French immersion program - a second language program - for English kids to learn French. The government decided last fall that they would replace that with a new program. That-- There were a lot of labels attached to it, but in fact, it was going to mean a lot less second language French instruction in English schools. And there was a huge reaction to that.

JACQUES POITRAS:The government did eventually back down because it was clear that it was costing them dearly. So those are-- In some of the discussion about Policy 713, where some people within his party have talked about his, you know, his lack of consultation, his unwillingness to listen to experts, to civil servants, to people within his own cabinet and caucus, they've also said that the same thing happened with this French immersion change.

SAROJA COELHO:Hadeel, I'm going to come to you. Let's get into the current reaction over Policy 713. This month, six of Higgs' MLAs actually revolted and voted for the province's child and youth advocate to do a full consultation on the changes that have been suggested specifically around transgender children. So just before this, what did the advocate himself have to say?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:So the child and youth advocate came out with a reaction report calling for a complete reversal of all the changes. He said the changes in the new policy is shoddy and unclear; the minister's interpretation is not totally borne out by the written policy, so. He also said that, specifically, the new changes on self-identification can be inadvertently discriminatory, because it basically adds a specific special rule for name changes if the child was transgender. And there's no other, you know, similar rules for if it was a nickname.

SAROJA COELHO:Meanwhile, we've had response from people who work directly with children. I mean, clearly this has caused an eruption of conversation and dissent. What have school psychologists had to say about these changes?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:So school psychologists and social workers were mentioned by name in the amended policy, and they said that they were not consulted. If they were, they would say that this is not something that they would want to participate in. So they came out with a statement saying that denying a child's request for a specific pronoun to be used can cause harm; that misgendering children can increase the risk of self-harm and suicide. And they said that they would not-- basically, would not be following this policy. And their union has filed two grievances against the policy, saying that it is unclear, and it also coerces psychologists and social workers into contravening the Human Rights Act. So they are asking that these changes don't apply to them, because they don't want to be complicit in harming children.

SAROJA COELHO:If we go a little bit further here: even before Higgs shuffled his cabinet to oust two of the MLAs who had been part of that revolt - that was just this week - two other members had resigned. So why did the first resign? That was Social Development Minister Dorothy Shephard. And what did she say about what was the breaking point for her? Jacques, I'll come to you for that.

JACQUES POITRAS:She said that Policy 713 and the process on it - you know, the way the premier didn't listen to his caucus and cabinet - was the last straw for her. But she made it clear that it was really just the latest in a series of these examples.

JACQUES POITRAS:She actually released a letter that she'd written to him a couple of years ago, where she said that, you know, he often ignores what civil servants and experts are telling him, what his caucus is telling him, and is sort of influenced by the last person he spoke to, who plants some idea in his mind that happens to conform with his existing way of thinking. And then a minister or some staff in a department have to spend time kind of getting him off that idea and back to square one, and then they have to start over explaining issues. So that, that seems to be the common diagnosis.

SAROJA COELHO:But the revolt against Higgs hasn't ended where you're describing it. In fact, I'm seeing lots of little fires here on the political landscape. Jacques, how have we seen MLAs and riding associations pushing for a leadership review, which essentially could lead to the ousting of Higgs?

JACQUES POITRAS:That's right. I mean, this has been going on in two tracks. There was in the legislature with the caucus and the cabinet -- that's kind of where it's at now because he shuffled his cabinet. But then separate from that - but influenced by it, obviously - is, you know, grassroots party members. There's thousands of them in the province, and they have been-- The presidents of the riding associations have been signing letters asking for a leadership review. Now, it's a long process and there's several steps, but the first trigger of that would be 20 riding association presidents signing this letter. Well, they-- they've surpassed 26, I think, at last count. That's more than a majority of the ridings in the province. So there is a considerable amount of support within the party to push forward and eventually get to a convention where party members would vote on whether they want to remove him as leader. But there are a lot of steps to go through, and I don't think we can take for granted that that vote would succeed. But there's certainly a growing constituency for that within the party.

SAROJA COELHO:I want to take a bit of a cynic's view here, because I'm not entirely understanding sticking to things like reducing or reviewing rights available for transgender children in the midst of all of this discontent and conversation. Is it possible that transgender children are being used as a piece of political leverage? Because I'm not really sure that kids are at the centre of this conversation.

JACQUES POITRAS:Well, I'll say this: he has backed down in the past. So we talked about French immersion and how he backed down on that. There were some difficult hospital reforms that were announced in 2020 that he backed down on, when it looked like he would lose a confidence vote in the legislature. On this one, he has stuck to it.

JACQUES POITRAS:I mean, we could analyze that as a political move because maybe there is a lot of support among some Conservatives, among the party base. They are getting a lot of emails from different groups that are voicing support for what he's doing. Just today, I saw an email from a religious conservative activist who was asking her supporters to sign on to say they support Blaine Higgs on this. So they may be reading it as something that will help them win an election. But, you know, there's some debate about that because it's those voters in the middle who didn't vote for him in 2018, but who voted for him in 2020 because they liked his handling of COVID. Where would they go in an election fought on this? It's, it's really hard to say.

SAROJA COELHO:Hadeel, I want to broaden this out nationally. We've talked about what's happening in the United States with politicians attacking trans rights, and how that discourse has then enabled the emergence of extremist views. So why are there fears, as this discussion unfolds in New Brunswick, that the discrimination could spread outside the province?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:So it is a fact that there is a rise in anti-transgender sentiment -- not only in the U.S., but also in Canada. Generally, anti-LGBTQ sentiment. But it seems to be really focused on transgender people. In this case, in New Brunswick, this is the first time in the country that an elected politician is kind of using some talking points that we are hearing in places like Florida where there was a ban on transgender care for children under 18. He's not going that far. But basically, what advocates are saying is any challenge to the right of these vulnerable children, any talk about bringing them back or rolling them back, is really scary because they are the most recent rights that have been asserted. And so with an elected politician saying things like, you know, gender dysphoria is trendy and popular, and, you know, lamenting the risk of children getting hormone treatment and then regretting it later, not addressing that there are safeguards in place and that actually surgery can only be done on people 18 and over -- all of that is kind of scaring people because it's adding to those talking points.

SAROJA COELHO:Well, you're speaking there really to an information and misinformation campaign that is very effective when it comes to issues like this. The murkier it gets, the more frightening it is for people. What is happening with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association in the meantime?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:Right. So they are making an announcement today. I don't know exactly what they will be announcing. But before the review results were announced they said that they would seriously consider legal action depending on what the results are. They've told me that their lawyers have been reviewing the changes. They have been talking with the local LGBTQ organizations, and they said they might either file their own legal action or support a legal action on behalf of a local organization. They're already suing the province for abortion access, so I guess they're kind of familiar with the landscape here.

SAROJA COELHO:Ultimately, this comes down to a question about what parents have the right to know about their child, versus the rights of children to safely make decisions about their own identity. What are experts saying about why children's rights need to take precedence? Why what's happening to them emotionally and psychologically is really where we should be placing our concentration?

HADEEL IBRAHIM:Well, experts are saying the way that children transition if they are questioning their gender identity: they would usually open up first in an informal way at school or among their friends or to one trusted adult. And teachers can be that trusted adult, and that is just the first step in coming into their identity. So if the parent is going to be supportive, the experts say, you know, your kid will tell you eventually. Also, there's this fear that this is going to, you know, start them off on a path that's permanent, that they might regret, and making decisions based on, like, social media and things like that. But the psychological experts that I spoke to are saying that using a different pronoun is a natural part of a child's discovery of their identity. So not every kid who's going to use a different pronoun is going to be a trans child. Allowing them to explore that will help them know. We also don't have any evidence that, quote unquote, "indulging that request" will hurt them. It causes harm to reject this request, and there is no proven harm to using the pronoun informally.

SAROJA COELHO:I want to thank you both for helping us understand what's happening in New Brunswick and what it might mean for the wider country. Thank you so much for this conversation.

JACQUES POITRAS:Thank you.

HADEEL IBRAHIM:Thank you.

SAROJA COELHO:And that's it for this edition of Front Burner. I'm Saroja Coelho. Thanks for listening.

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