http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-tax-repatriation-canadian-1.4779747
David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
http://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2018/08/need-i-say-i-was-delighted-to-see-cbc.html
#FATCA#CRA#IRS#TrumpKnew#TrudeauMustGo
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-tax-repatriation-canadian-1.4779747
· CBC News· Posted: Aug 13, 2018 4:00 AM ET
Denis VanHumbeck
David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Need I say I was delighted to see CBC use theToronto lawyer John Richardson's thoughts against Trump and FATCA etc
http://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2018/08/need-i-say-i-was-delighted-to-see-cbc.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-tax-repatriation-canadian-1.4779747
Canadian residents hit by Trump tax dealt a new blow
Experts say proposed U.S. regulations could violate the Canada-U.S. tax treaty
· CBC News· Posted: Aug 13, 2018 4:00 AM ET
Comments
Denis VanHumbeck
At least the U.S goes after the wealthy tax avoiders unlike Canada.
Ken Michel
@Denis VanHumbeck Please read the article. None of these people avoided their taxes. They all paid Canadian corporate income tax.
John Oaktree
@Denis VanHumbeck
Huh... the people getting hurt by this huge Trump tax grab are average Canadians who just happen to be dual citizens.
Tell me - why doesn't Donald Trump honour his international agreements??
BTW - the rich elite billionaires are enjoying a HUGE tax cut from Trump. You know Donald Trump - he's listed in the Panama Papers as a tax avoider several times...
Huh... the people getting hurt by this huge Trump tax grab are average Canadians who just happen to be dual citizens.
Tell me - why doesn't Donald Trump honour his international agreements??
BTW - the rich elite billionaires are enjoying a HUGE tax cut from Trump. You know Donald Trump - he's listed in the Panama Papers as a tax avoider several times...
Robert Lee
@Denis VanHumbeck
Wasn't Harper caught fêteing KPMG deal by signing them up as consulting agence to rewrite Canadian tax laws?
Yup! There it is....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/harper-government-partnered-with-industry-group-battling-cra-over-kpmg-case-1.3257994
Wasn't Harper caught fêteing KPMG deal by signing them up as consulting agence to rewrite Canadian tax laws?
Yup! There it is....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/harper-government-partnered-with-industry-group-battling-cra-over-kpmg-case-1.3257994
David Amos
@Robert Lee Oh My My Methinks whereas you won't believe me you should ask Minister Diane Lebouthillier or the CBC what I know about KPMG et al N'esy Pas?
Dave Carey
As an individual (born and raised in Canada) that happened to live and work in the US for 15 years then retired and came back home to live off my pensions earned in both countries, I'm waiting for the next small step to be taken - that is taxing individuals as well as corporations. I happen to pay a lot of taxes in both Canada and the USA and the Canada - US tax treaty is the only thing that makes that somewhat bearable. Apparently though it isn't worth the paper it's written on. What a sad pathetic country the USA has become under Trump!
David Amos
@Dave Carey Methinks the lawyer Richardson and many others know why I called Kevyn Nightingale and left a voicemail N'esy Pas?
Neil Gregory
Once again the USA has proved that it can NOT be trusted to live up to the provisions contained in the treaties it has signed. So, the REAL questions are:
- WHY would Canada sign ANY new treaty, including a new NAFTA deal with them?
- WHY does ANY country think we can still trust them to keep ANY other treaty - NATO, NORADE etc?
- WHY would Canada sign ANY new treaty, including a new NAFTA deal with them?
- WHY does ANY country think we can still trust them to keep ANY other treaty - NATO, NORADE etc?
Robert Lee
@Neil Gregory
It has more to do with the Trump admin. Not the US.
Crazy Conservative Contracts.
It has more to do with the Trump admin. Not the US.
Crazy Conservative Contracts.
Content disabled.
David Amos
@Neil Gregory WHY would Canada sign ANY new treaty, including a new NAFTA deal with them?
Beats me
Beats me
Content disabled.
David Amos
@David Amos I would love CBC to explain why they blocked that comment
David Amos
@Robert Lee "It has more to do with the Trump admin. Not the US."
Methinks Trump speaks for the US on foreign affairs N'esy Pas?
Methinks Trump speaks for the US on foreign affairs N'esy Pas?
Aala Shariati Saravi
…those who look like us, speak like us, share borders with us, share ideologies with us, speak the same language, may after all, not be our friends...
David Amos
@Aala Shariati Saravi Methinks according to Mr Trump we have not settled the War of 1812 yet N'esy Pas?
steve wilson
So wealthy Canadians who were shopping for yet another tax credit in their zeal to avoid paying any tax at all have ironically found themselves on the hook for MORE taxes.
Good, the culture of the wealthy avoiding their share of taxes at all costs needs to end! This may be the only thing Trump does I end up applauding.
Good, the culture of the wealthy avoiding their share of taxes at all costs needs to end! This may be the only thing Trump does I end up applauding.
David Amos
@steve wilson Methinks you celebrate Trump's achievement you should Google the following N'esy Pas?
Trump Cohen Amos NAFTA FATCA TPP
Trump Cohen Amos NAFTA FATCA TPP
Charles Beale
One more reasons for Canadians to take their business, their travel and their cash elsewhere. Trump is turning the US into a fortress that will eventually be viewed by the world as an unfriendly alien nation.
David Amos
@Robert Lee Methinks we should talk about what is not reported on by anyone N'esy Pas?
Robert Lee
Yup! That's what means!
Anyone who voted for this chump can now rest easy, sit back and marvel over the destruction they have brought forth by placing a madman in the highest political office in the entire world.
Look at the control Ford is trying to wrest from Canada's largest city. It'll be constant chaos as city councilors juggle between doing their job and fighting with provincial MPPs.
Vote Conservatives and get Machiavellian despots.
Anyone who voted for this chump can now rest easy, sit back and marvel over the destruction they have brought forth by placing a madman in the highest political office in the entire world.
Look at the control Ford is trying to wrest from Canada's largest city. It'll be constant chaos as city councilors juggle between doing their job and fighting with provincial MPPs.
Vote Conservatives and get Machiavellian despots.
Karen King
@Robert Lee
Indeed I was thinking the same thing, did Ford actually instigate that whole allegation thing, and get Brown removed so he could just move in??
Indeed I was thinking the same thing, did Ford actually instigate that whole allegation thing, and get Brown removed so he could just move in??
David Amos
@Karen King Methinks not one soul would expect you to vote for Conservatives in order to get Machiavellian despots N'esy Pas?
John Richardson
Just to summarize how this "so called" tax works: Here is the "Readers Digest" Version.
1. A Canadian resident individual creates a Canadian Controlled Private Corp.
2. That CDN corp may make some profits.
3. If those profits are paid out to the individual, the individual pays taxes on his personal tax return (wherever he is required to file a return).
4. If the profits earned by the Corp are not paid out to the individual they are (1) taxed to the corp in Canada. The "after tax money" remains in the corp for future investment, or to be distributed to the individual later. Note that in Canada the money is not taxed to the individual until the money is distributed to the individual.
5. Canadians with U.S. citizenship also have to file U.S. tax returns. Those returns disclose existence of the CCPC and the amount of earnings that have not been paid out by the corp.
6. Money left in the corp (to be distributed later) was fully disclosed to the USA, but was NOT subject to US tax when earned. I repeat it was NOT (under US law subject to taxation when it was earned).
7. USA is claiming the right to (1) impose tax on money earned by the corp by (2) pretending that the money was actually earned by the individual (who never received it) - creating fake income!
8. Therefore, this is about (1) the USA imposing retroactive tax on (2) money that was not subject to U.S. tax when earned (3) by pretending that the money was distributed to the CDN shareholder (4) when the money was not distributed.
9. It will expose the individual to double tax in the USA and Canada.
USA is (1) creating fake income (2) imposing real taxation on fake income (3) imposing taxes before Canada can tax it and (4) stealing from Canada.
1. A Canadian resident individual creates a Canadian Controlled Private Corp.
2. That CDN corp may make some profits.
3. If those profits are paid out to the individual, the individual pays taxes on his personal tax return (wherever he is required to file a return).
4. If the profits earned by the Corp are not paid out to the individual they are (1) taxed to the corp in Canada. The "after tax money" remains in the corp for future investment, or to be distributed to the individual later. Note that in Canada the money is not taxed to the individual until the money is distributed to the individual.
5. Canadians with U.S. citizenship also have to file U.S. tax returns. Those returns disclose existence of the CCPC and the amount of earnings that have not been paid out by the corp.
6. Money left in the corp (to be distributed later) was fully disclosed to the USA, but was NOT subject to US tax when earned. I repeat it was NOT (under US law subject to taxation when it was earned).
7. USA is claiming the right to (1) impose tax on money earned by the corp by (2) pretending that the money was actually earned by the individual (who never received it) - creating fake income!
8. Therefore, this is about (1) the USA imposing retroactive tax on (2) money that was not subject to U.S. tax when earned (3) by pretending that the money was distributed to the CDN shareholder (4) when the money was not distributed.
9. It will expose the individual to double tax in the USA and Canada.
USA is (1) creating fake income (2) imposing real taxation on fake income (3) imposing taxes before Canada can tax it and (4) stealing from Canada.
David Amos
@John Richardson Methinks you should recall our last conversation N'esy Pas?
Bill Baird
If you have this problem the answer is simple. Just join Space Force, there will be a complete tax deduction. You might have to spend some time in space, but, unless you have bone spurs that shouldn't be a problem.
Robert Lee
@Bill Baird
Machiavellian bully. Don't believe for a second that Trump is winning.
There is more destruction and disruption than anything else.
If the PM caves to the demands, Trump will come at us for more concessions.
Stand tall!
Machiavellian bully. Don't believe for a second that Trump is winning.
There is more destruction and disruption than anything else.
If the PM caves to the demands, Trump will come at us for more concessions.
Stand tall!
David Amos
@Robert Lee Methinks your Machiavellian rhetoric has become a little boring N'esy Pas?
David Sampson
Back in the day, when Yahweh was in creation mode, s/he turned to the top angel dude and said: “Gabriel, I'm going to fashion a country with magnificent mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans on three sides, extensive forests, vast mineral wealth, prairies, a multitude of wildlife, a variety of climates — and I'm going to call this land, ‘Canada.’”
“But, Lord,” Gabriel replied, “why are you being so generous toward this ‘Canada?’” “Ahh, but Gabriel, wait until you see the neighbors I’m going to give them!”
“But, Lord,” Gabriel replied, “why are you being so generous toward this ‘Canada?’” “Ahh, but Gabriel, wait until you see the neighbors I’m going to give them!”
David Amos
@David Sampson Methinks his top Angel dude was Lucifer N'esy Pas?
Don Luft
Well when did Trump ever give a hoot for an international agreement or treaty? NAFTA, the Paris Agreement, the Iran deal, , the Outer Space Treaty - it doesn't matter to Trump. He's rolling back emission standards on cars and wants to increase the use of coal. which will have international repercussions for increased carbon emissions
He's only been in power for 19 months and the harm he's done is colossal.
He's only been in power for 19 months and the harm he's done is colossal.
Ron Vollans
@Don Luft
Hillary has been targeted by Republicans for 30+ years, and never once has their accusations resulted in criminal charges, never mind trials and convictions. Blind hate and blatant l's ruined her, not her own actions.
Hillary has been targeted by Republicans for 30+ years, and never once has their accusations resulted in criminal charges, never mind trials and convictions. Blind hate and blatant l's ruined her, not her own actions.
David Amos
@Ron Vollans "Blind hate and blatant l's ruined her, not her own actions."
I disagree
I disagree
Canadian residents hit by Trump tax dealt a new blow
Experts say proposed U.S. regulations could violate the Canada-U.S. tax treaty
· CBC News· Posted: Aug 13, 2018 4:00 AM ET
Thousands of Canadian residents hit hard by a retroactive tax signed into law by U.S. President Donald Trump have been dealt another blow, CBC News has learned.
Newly proposed regulations issued by the U.S. Treasury Department and the Internal Revenue Service threaten to increase their tax hit.
"You have to almost empty out your company and pay a lot of Canadian tax to avoid the U.S. tax," said Kevyn Nightingale, a partner with the accounting firm MNP.
"It turns a very bad situation into the virtual liquidation of a corporation," said Toronto lawyer John Richardson.
A 'Transition Tax' introduced by the Trump administration was intended to discourage U.S. multinationals from leaving vast sums in foreign subsidiaries. But the tax is also hitting Canadians with U.S. or dual citizenship who have companies incorporated in Canada.
While many of those affected had hoped to use a longstanding U.S. tax deduction to take some of the sting out of their tax bills, the proposed regulations — contained in a guidance document from Treasury and the IRS issued last week — will allow only a portion of that deduction.
Some experts say the proposed regulations may also violate a Canada-U.S. tax treaty which is supposed to prevent double taxation.
"My answer is likely yes — that the IRS guidance does violate the tax treaty," said Max Reed, a Vancouver-based cross-border tax lawyer with SKL Tax.
The new, 249-page guidance document is the latest twist in a complicated tale that some tax experts have described as a "nightmare."
In December, Trump signed a sweeping tax reform bill into law. It included the Transition Tax, also known as the Repatriation Tax, which was meant to get big American multinational companies like Apple and Microsoft to stop parking billions of dollars in foreign subsidiaries.
As a result, many Canadian residents with U.S. or dual citizenship — particularly those who have used their small corporations to save for their retirements — are facing tax bills amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars on all of the retained earnings in their corporations going back to 1986. Some bills run into the millions.
While the tax is being levied on money sitting in corporations, it's the owners who have to declare the money on their 2017 tax returns.
In June, those hit by the tax were given a temporary reprieve — more time to file their tax returns and to make their first payments to the IRS.
Some of those advisers have been telling their clients to take money out of their corporations. While doing that would trigger a Canadian tax hit, under the Canada-U.S. tax treaty, tax payments made to one country are generally deductible in the other.
However, under the proposed regulations, the U.S. government plans to only allow a fraction of that deduction.
Experts say that may force many of those affected to take more money than they planned out of their companies and pay more in Canadian tax in order to mitigate the U.S. repatriation tax.
"The result of the guidance is that the amount that they're going to have to take out to avoid the double tax has increased significantly, and that is going to make this more expensive," said Reed.
Nightingale said many of his clients are going to have to take twice as much out of their Canadian corporations than they had planned on to avoid the transition tax.
"You have to pay out a whole lot of dividends from your corporation to generate Canadian tax so that you can claim a foreign tax credit in the U.S."
For Canada's federal government, that could result in a temporary tax windfall, Nightingale said.
"For the government of Canada, it's great ... It's actually going to bump Canadian federal and provincial revenues."
Tax lawyers and accountants say many of their clients — particularly those with dual citizenship and few, if any, ties to the U.S. — are already angry at the repatriation tax and the proposed regulations aren't going to make it any better.
"The guidance is going to make people even angrier and I think that's completely justifiable," said Reed.
"There is a treaty between the two countries and the point of that treaty is to make sure you don't pay tax twice on the same income ... this is a risk here and the guidance has made that worse."
Reed and Richardson said they believe the proposed regulations may violate the Canada-U.S. tax treaty.
"Is it a violation of the tax treaty itself for the United States to not allow the full amount of tax paid on a dividend in Canada to be used as a tax credit against the transition tax?" said Richardson. "I think it may very well be."
Nightingale is less convinced.
Canada's federal Department of Finance is still analyzing the potential impact of the tax and won't say whether the proposed regulations could violate the tax treaty.
"There are a number of tax changes underway in the United States," said department spokesman Jack Aubry. "The overall impact on U.S. citizens resident in Canada will depend on their personal situations.
"We recognize that certain U.S. tax changes are causing difficulties for U.S. citizens resident in Canada. The Department of Finance is conducting detailed analytical work to consider the impact of (the) U.S. tax reform."
Getting out of paying the repatriation tax by renouncing U.S. citizenship also has gotten harder.
Those hit by the tax can elect to pay it over eight years — but the new guidance says those who renounce their U.S. citizenship have to pay it immediately.
Richardson said some people may have to keep their U.S. citizenship because they can't afford to pay the entire repatriation tax at once.
"It actually makes it impossible to renounce U.S. citizenship, turning U.S. citizenship into a sort of debtors prison," he said.
Richardson said the tax has fuelled efforts to lobby for a change in the way U.S. expats are taxed. The American Chamber of Commerce in Canada is organizing a talk in Toronto Thursday with Solomon Yue, CEO of Republicans Overseas, to discuss plans for a bill to tax Americans based on where they live rather than on their citizenship.
Elizabeth Thompson can be reached at elizabeth.thompson@cbc.ca
Newly proposed regulations issued by the U.S. Treasury Department and the Internal Revenue Service threaten to increase their tax hit.
"You have to almost empty out your company and pay a lot of Canadian tax to avoid the U.S. tax," said Kevyn Nightingale, a partner with the accounting firm MNP.
A 'Transition Tax' introduced by the Trump administration was intended to discourage U.S. multinationals from leaving vast sums in foreign subsidiaries. But the tax is also hitting Canadians with U.S. or dual citizenship who have companies incorporated in Canada.
While many of those affected had hoped to use a longstanding U.S. tax deduction to take some of the sting out of their tax bills, the proposed regulations — contained in a guidance document from Treasury and the IRS issued last week — will allow only a portion of that deduction.
Some experts say the proposed regulations may also violate a Canada-U.S. tax treaty which is supposed to prevent double taxation.
'A nightmare'
"My answer is likely yes — that the IRS guidance does violate the tax treaty," said Max Reed, a Vancouver-based cross-border tax lawyer with SKL Tax.
The new, 249-page guidance document is the latest twist in a complicated tale that some tax experts have described as a "nightmare."
In December, Trump signed a sweeping tax reform bill into law. It included the Transition Tax, also known as the Repatriation Tax, which was meant to get big American multinational companies like Apple and Microsoft to stop parking billions of dollars in foreign subsidiaries.
As a result, many Canadian residents with U.S. or dual citizenship — particularly those who have used their small corporations to save for their retirements — are facing tax bills amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars on all of the retained earnings in their corporations going back to 1986. Some bills run into the millions.
While the tax is being levied on money sitting in corporations, it's the owners who have to declare the money on their 2017 tax returns.
In June, those hit by the tax were given a temporary reprieve — more time to file their tax returns and to make their first payments to the IRS.
It actually makes it impossible to renounce U.S. citizenship, turning (it) into a sort of debtors prison.- Lawyer John Richardson on new U.S. tax rules for overseas corporationsTax lawyers and accountants have been grappling with the new tax, trying to find the best way to help their clients.
Some of those advisers have been telling their clients to take money out of their corporations. While doing that would trigger a Canadian tax hit, under the Canada-U.S. tax treaty, tax payments made to one country are generally deductible in the other.
However, under the proposed regulations, the U.S. government plans to only allow a fraction of that deduction.
Experts say that may force many of those affected to take more money than they planned out of their companies and pay more in Canadian tax in order to mitigate the U.S. repatriation tax.
"The result of the guidance is that the amount that they're going to have to take out to avoid the double tax has increased significantly, and that is going to make this more expensive," said Reed.
Nightingale said many of his clients are going to have to take twice as much out of their Canadian corporations than they had planned on to avoid the transition tax.
"You have to pay out a whole lot of dividends from your corporation to generate Canadian tax so that you can claim a foreign tax credit in the U.S."
A windfall for Ottawa?
For Canada's federal government, that could result in a temporary tax windfall, Nightingale said.
"For the government of Canada, it's great ... It's actually going to bump Canadian federal and provincial revenues."
Tax lawyers and accountants say many of their clients — particularly those with dual citizenship and few, if any, ties to the U.S. — are already angry at the repatriation tax and the proposed regulations aren't going to make it any better.
"The guidance is going to make people even angrier and I think that's completely justifiable," said Reed.
"There is a treaty between the two countries and the point of that treaty is to make sure you don't pay tax twice on the same income ... this is a risk here and the guidance has made that worse."
Reed and Richardson said they believe the proposed regulations may violate the Canada-U.S. tax treaty.
"Is it a violation of the tax treaty itself for the United States to not allow the full amount of tax paid on a dividend in Canada to be used as a tax credit against the transition tax?" said Richardson. "I think it may very well be."
Canada's federal Department of Finance is still analyzing the potential impact of the tax and won't say whether the proposed regulations could violate the tax treaty.
"There are a number of tax changes underway in the United States," said department spokesman Jack Aubry. "The overall impact on U.S. citizens resident in Canada will depend on their personal situations.
"We recognize that certain U.S. tax changes are causing difficulties for U.S. citizens resident in Canada. The Department of Finance is conducting detailed analytical work to consider the impact of (the) U.S. tax reform."
Getting out of paying the repatriation tax by renouncing U.S. citizenship also has gotten harder.
Richardson said some people may have to keep their U.S. citizenship because they can't afford to pay the entire repatriation tax at once.
"It actually makes it impossible to renounce U.S. citizenship, turning U.S. citizenship into a sort of debtors prison," he said.
Richardson said the tax has fuelled efforts to lobby for a change in the way U.S. expats are taxed. The American Chamber of Commerce in Canada is organizing a talk in Toronto Thursday with Solomon Yue, CEO of Republicans Overseas, to discuss plans for a bill to tax Americans based on where they live rather than on their citizenship.
Elizabeth Thompson can be reached at elizabeth.thompson@cbc.ca