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Minister lashes out as Green MLA stalls vote on 'safe communities' bill

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/minister-lashes-out-over-stalled-vote-1.6328639

 

Minister lashes out as Green MLA stalls vote on 'safe communities' bill

Ted Flemming clashes with Green MLA Kevin Arseneau over bill amendments

Ted Flemming lashed out at Kevin Arseneau, accusing him of wearing a "supercilious smirk" after the Kent North MLA insisted on his right to pose more questions about the bill.

Flemming had to leave the Wednesday meeting at 1:30 p.m. for an appointment, and he urged the legislative committee examining the bill to vote on it before adjourning.

Green Party MLA Kevin Arseneau wants to see data to back up Flemming's claim the SCAN program works. (Jacques Poitras/CBC News)

But MLAs have a right to unlimited questions during committee debate, and Arseneau refused to forgo that right, meaning the vote could not take place.

"I am not prepared to vote. … I have questions that have not been answered yet."

Flemming accused Arseneau of "posturing" by demanding data to back up Flemming's claim that the Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act has been working well. 

"He can sit there with his supercilious smirk all he wants," Flemming said. "We don't have the information."

The minister said he was willing to get the information to him later and said Arseneau would be to blame for impeding the province's efforts to crack down on crime.

Arseneau said he should not be expected to vote based only on the minister's verbal assurances that the Safer Communities and Neighborhoods Act is working.

"What I want is data, is facts. Not just 'I've seen that it works.' That's a very discretionary way to make laws." 

Committee members have a right to ask as many questions as they want, and Arseneau's refusal to allow a vote was upheld by the committee chair. (Karissa Donkin/CBC)

Other Progressive Conservative MLAs also called for a vote, but PC MLA and committee chair Greg Turner pointed out the rules allow Arseneau to keep asking questions. The debate will resume at a later date.

The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods, or SCAN, program was passed into law in 2009 and started operating in 2010. It's designed to let authorities go through civil, not criminal, courts to force drug dealers and other criminals out of neighbourhoods.

​That means the burden of proof is not as high as establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Flemming's amendments would protect the anonymity of neighbours who make complaints, which he acknowledged would "permit hearsay evidence" not normally admissible in court. 

They would also update the law to say there's a presumption a neighbourhood is "adversely affected" if a judge is satisfied "a property is being habitually used for a specified use" such as drug sales. That in turn makes it easier for the judge to issue an order under the act.

                                                  Nicole O'Byrne, an associate law professor at UNB, says one of the amendments puts a higher      burden on the accused to disprove the allegations. (Mag Hood/Submitted Nicole O'Byrne)     

University of New Brunswick law professor Nicole O'Byrne called that amendment problematic because it takes away a judge's discretion to decide how a neighbourhood is affected based on evidence.

And it also puts a higher burden on the person facing eviction to disprove the assumption.

Housing and anti-poverty activist Abram Lutes said allowing anonymous complaints opens the door to the law being abused to discriminate against poor and racialized tenants.

"It can easily be used as a pretext to get rid of people," he said. 

In 2015 an Edmundston man was evicted from an apartment after police warned his landlord he was the subject of a SCAN investigation before the case ever got to court.

In 2013, a Court of Queen's Bench judge in Saint John quashed two evictions by N.B.  Housing, the provincial government's social housing agency, that it launched after SCAN investigations.

Justice Peter Glennie's ruling was against New Brunswick Housing for not giving the tenants the chance to challenge their evictions, not against SCAN itself.

Still, Glennie said in his ruling that the SCAN investigations were "inadequate and superficial," pointing out the investigator never spoke to the tenants themselves.

Flemming's amendments have been through two readings by the full legislature and now must be approved by a committee before returning for a third and final vote. 

He said the SCAN Act has been a success.

"We have had many, many, many complaints, many investigations, many successful evictions, and many grateful people," he said. "This works. It's good legislation." 

Under the law, the SCAN unit in Flemming's department received and investigates a complaint and can then try to convince the "offending party" stop their behaviour or ask a judge to issue a "community safety order" to vacate the property.

The person named in the complaint is given a notice of that hearing so they can respond. 

But part of the amendments debated Wednesday will allow investigators to send the notice by registered mail rather than serving it to the person directly.

Public Safety Minister Ted Flemming said he didn't have the information MLA Kevin Arseneau wanted. (Jacques Poitras/CBC file photo)

Flemming said Wednesday that makes it harder for the person to avoid being served with the notice. "This allows that behaviour to not work to the advantage of a criminal," he said.

Flemming repeatedly referred to the subjects of SCAN investigations as "criminals" though at no point in the process are they charged with a crime.

Last May, Flemming told the legislature that the province's COVID-19 emergency order went "against my grain as a libertarian" because it gave the government extraordinary powers to limit personal freedoms when enforcing restrictions.

He said Wednesday the SCAN act doesn't limit a citizen's rights to procedural fairness before the courts.

"If someone doesn't like this statute they can appeal it or they can challenge it under the Constitution," he said.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Jacques Poitras

Provincial Affairs reporter

Jacques Poitras has been CBC's provincial affairs reporter in New Brunswick since 2000. Raised in Moncton, he also produces the CBC political podcast Spin Reduxit.

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices

 

83 Comments
.... 
 
 
David Amos
Methinks Higgy's circus is in fine form today N'esy Pas?  
 
 
 
 
Jim Gootjes
It sound like someone wants to short circuit due process and can’t justify it with facts or data. Why am I not surprised?
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Jim Gootjes: Methinks you may be blessed with a rare thing called common sense N'esy Pas?
 
 
 
 
 
Johnny Jakobs
I'd like to evict the Empire from the province. The crimes against the people of NB are too long to list. Go get em Teddy
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Johnny Jakobs: Dream on
 
 
 
 
 
Dave Corbin 
Get rid of him...Fleming that is.
 
 
Matt Adams
Reply to @Dave Corbin: Kevin A needs to go. He's hot headed, unprofessional and childish
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Matt Adams: Yet Teddy isn't???

Methinks many would agree that they make Higgy's circus almost as entertaining as Cardy does N'esy Pas?
 
 
Graham McCormack
Reply to @Matt Adams: They both need to go. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Matt Steele 
I can't really say that I would want a drug dealer living in my neighborhood either ; and the druggies seem to know how to play the game to their advantage , so some new laws are probably needed . Kevin Arseneau lives in a more rural area , so he may not be aware of what is going on in some urban neighborhoods .
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @Matt Steele: the thing he ain’t saying is he is willing to throw the entire family out into the streets….not just the known to police suspect…..the children too
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @phil mckay: aka guilt by association
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: aka guilty by suspicion rather than proper prosecution
 
 
 
 
 
 
Marguerite Deschamps 
Is this Flemming guy really a lawyer❓
Where did he get his law degree❓
 
 
Johnny Jakobs 
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: crackerjack box and he got a little toy
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Methinks Teddy is walking talking proof a political dynasty just like Trudeau the Younger and his babysitter are N'esy Pas?
 
 
 
 
 
Mandel Rooney
This sounds like a bad idea, espeically when you look at civil forfeiture laws in the US.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Mandel Rooney: Did the King of Lockdowns ever have a good idea???
 
 
 
 
 
phil mckay 
I would bet there is a very specific drug suspect off of Hampton road near Marr road…..is his entire focus……
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: Does Teddy know of this???
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @David Amos: I would bet he talks to specific ppl in the kv police and knows to the event I’m thinking of very well…..
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @David Amos: I just hope this isn’t saying something about the kv police….because the last administration’s dirty laundry sort of wasn’t look at…hidden by one leader’s very ugly behavior….and the other retired
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: FYI The KV cops won't return my calls or answer my emails nor will their buddy Teddy but no doubt they are reading this
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: My battles with the cops in that area go back to 1982
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @David Amos: lol…..
 
 
phil mckay 
Reply to @David Amos: sort of strange they dont call u back….but that statistic is not keep public….maybe not even in house.
Paid to do a job. Cherrypicking isnt one of them
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: Do you know who I am???
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @David Amos: nope
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: I thought so
 
 
 
 
Noel Fowles 
"public safety minister has accused a Green MLA of being "a shill for organized crime" for holding up amendments"
don't agree about something and you're a shill for organised crime. What is probably illegal is forcing somebody to move without a conviction. This won't stand up in court.
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @Noel Fowles: I refer to him as foghorn leghorn…..I say I say
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Noel Fowles: Thats nothing Some anti vaxxers claim that I am a shill for the RCMP
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: He looks more like turkey to me I wonder if Mikey Holland agrees He used to work for a turkey lady and loves to hunt them so he should be an authority
 
 
 
 
 
 
phil mckay
I would bet 100$ that Ted is pushing this because of some gun violence in quispamsis/rothesay and their poverty clusters….from older constituents complaining…. I’ve heard how “respectable” ppl talk about it….pushing poverty out of the valley is an unspoken policy.
Where is the money for the jails?
Where’s the money for the staff?
Where’s the money for lawyers and judges?

Ppl like ted have been in power for decades….they helped create the poverty that is the root of most of the crime.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: Of that I have no doubt
 
 
Steve Simonds
Reply to @phil mckay: Who told you that? THey didn't tell me.
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @Steve Simonds: maybe u don’t associate with the respectable ppl. Lol
 
 
Jim Gootjes
Reply to @phil mckay: somebody’s been watching too many Clint Eastwood movies again.
 
 
David Amos 
Reply to @Jim Gootjes: Methinks truth is stranger than fiction and far more important N'esy Pas? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Laura Smith 
"In 2015 an Edmundston man was evicted from an apartment after police warned his landlord he was the subject of a SCAN investigation before the case ever got to court."
Was he convicted ? Where is the investigative reporting ?
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Laura Smith: Go figure
 
 
 
 
 
danny rugg
Kevin needs a Ricky and Julian to move in next door.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @danny rugg: Perhaps he does
 
 
Toby Tolly
Reply to @danny rugg: that makes him Bubbles
 
 
Christopher Harborne:
Reply to @danny rugg: your comment falls apart because Ricky and Julian are convicted, a lot. This is for non-convicts.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Toby Tolly: or a shill for disorganized crime
 
 
 
 
 
Marc Bourque 
Arseneau's belt buckle says it all..Worry not folks next election he will have to get a real job!
 
 
Toby Tolly
Reply to @Marc Bourque: Jacques got on his knees for that photo
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Marc Bourque: Heres hoping
 
 
 
 
 
 
Toby Tolly 
Heres Jacques covering all the important details again
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Toby Tolly: LMAO
 
 
 
 
 
Josef Blow
Mr. Flemming's thoughts on the streamlined amendments that can cut legal corners and deprive a judge of his or her own discretionary powers , is reminiscent of the Harper years when the PM, Peter MacKay and other defenders of the Conservative faith collectively acted as though democracy were a hindrance to legislative efficiency.
 
 
phil mckay
Reply to @Josef Blow: he doesn’t mind to railroad them. Totally a smoke therefore fire and u wouldn’t be here if u didn’t do anything.
 
 
Tim Trites
Reply to @Josef Blow:
i couldn't figure out what discretionary powers were deprived
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @phil mckay: Hmmm
 
 
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Josef Blow: A CONservative will do that, all the time❗
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: So do Red Coats 
 
 
Marguerite Deschamps 
Reply to @David Amos: They all need to be held in check
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Methinks any proper court-jester I will go to my grave trying to do just that Perhaps some day my ghost will be successful and like Yorik I will rest in peace grinning N'esy Pas? 
 
 
 
 
 
JOHN NOWLAN
It is unheard of for a minister of the crown to go to a committee without evidence to bolster the argument she or he was making. And it is absolutely absurd for a minister to say "just trust me".
There would be a briefing book available to the minister answering most potential questions that will be proposed in committee; particularly was the program or service successful, and if so in what way. And if Fleming did not have that book or didn't bother to refer to it that is sloppy work on his, and his various assistants' part. And highly disrespectful to the legislative process.
Legislative committees exist for opposition members to hold the government of the day accountable. Not for the minister to tell the opposition and the public how great he or she is at running the department. 
 
 
Dianne Bastarache:
Reply to @JOHN NOWLAN: I absolutely agree. Then, to accuse Arsenault of being a shill for organized crime is despicable, just because he (Arsenault) wants to make sure to follow the law, which by the way, should be the primary responsibility of Flemming.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @JOHN NOWLAN: Well put
 
 
 
 
 
 
Julie Richard
I love that Kevin guy ! 🤘🏻
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Julie Richard: Nay not I
Methinks Arseneau et al know that I am very proud of mon ami Roger Richard who has run against your hero twice thus far N'esy Pas?
 
 
Graham McCormack
Reply to @Julie Richard: You can have him. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Michael Cain
What is wrong with Flemming? Looking for squealers, guilty until proven innocence? Claims he is a lawyer? he has got to go
 
phil mckay
Reply to @Michael Cain: truthfully, I don’t like talking to the guy…. Greasy is the feeling. I would bet the guy is also lobbying through his lawyering….
 
 
Michael Cain
Reply to @phil mckay: I have seen him ridicule and put down anybody who has an opinion; he is old school, too long in the game
 
 
David Amos 
Reply to @phil mckay: Why do you think I talked Liz Kramer into running against him and then Mayor as well?
 
 
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David Amos: Better off to talk to Cosmo Kramer.
 
 
David Amos 
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: I double dog dare you to say that to the lady in person
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
michael levesque
this is a good thing for the communities greens should be ashamed of themselves and stick to their climate agenda.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @michael levesque: Why?
 
 
 
 
 
Kyle Woodman
Ted Flemming is a joke. Should be disbarred.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Kyle Woodman: I concur
 
 
 
 
 
Douglas James
Safer communities and neighbourhoods? Saint John city council doesn't even want that, having refused to support provincial legislation allowing red-light cameras. We have an epidemic of red-light runners and speeders in the city but the city manager doesn't want to do anything until he 'knows where the money (from fines) will go. Right now the province grabs all the money and the city gets none. No excuse for the city not acting but still, if the Higgs government truly cared about safer communities and neighbourhoods they'd split the money with municipalities so they could invest more in community policing.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Douglas James: You ran with Arseneau a his party Correct?
 
 
Matt Steele
Reply to @Douglas James: ...Strange as I drive throughout Saint John everyday , and I haven't seen all these alleged red light runners ; nor do I see any problem with speed enforcement in the city . Other than an odd fender bender here and there , it appears that Saint Johner's are pretty good drivers .
 
 
Matt Adams
Reply to @Matt Steele: you can't speed in sj. You'd destroy your car on their streets
 
 
Douglas James
Reply to @Matt Steele: Good for you.
 
 
Douglas James
Reply to @David Amos: If you had a point, you would have made it.
 
 
David Amos
Reply to @Douglas James: I have many times and you always ignored me.

So say hey for me to your CBC/CNN buddies, Chucky Leblanc, Mr Arseneau, Mr Coon the lawyer O'Byrne and especially my cousin Madame Mitton too will ya?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


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